Is Pernell Whitaker the greatest ring general in boxing history?

I have issues with people ranking Floyd among the best ring generals ever. It's something I harp on a lot but really, getting cornered by DLH, Cotto, Jesus Chavez, Augustus, Castillo, Ortiz, Hatton. He's not even the best ring general of his era, with Marquez and Hopkins showing superior control of the center. Floyd has no glaring weaknesses, he is a very complete fighter, but if you want to critique him from a technical standpoint, ring generalship is the most obvious point to go to IMO. An Italian Fencer, not a Spanish one.

Whitaker is someone I'd consider very high up there, it was incredible. Though I'm starting to see a trend with fights staying in the center of the ring more often in southpaw/orthodox match-ups in which one leads and the other counters. It seems much easier to turn a fighter on angles when they mirror you than when you're more square in the same stance facing off. So I'd imagine that greatly helped Whitaker use the ring as his playground.

 

He hasn't faced a sufficient calibre or variety of stylists.

Just straight on plodder types.

 

McMustache deserves a mention.

 

I can safely say that's been done to death.

 

He's up near the top, but there have been so many great ring generals with so many different styles of controlling a fight that I wouldn't want to unquestionably say that anyone is number 1.

 

I would normaly be inclined to agree with you about Mayweather being cornered. However, he dose some of his best work with his back on the ropes. I understand it's counterintuitive, and any good trainer would have him avoid having his back on the ropes, but for whatever reason it works for him.

 

Nah, Pea's pretty much right there with any of them.

I side with the Monzon camp though.

 

Whitaker gets major points from me because he did it against MUCH larger men. Even dictated against a young, albeit possibly green Oscar, post-prime, which is huge.

You could hardly ever drag him into a slugfest and he was constantly working and out thinking his opponent. Even in slugfest, he rarely fared the worse for the wear.

That said I think Roy Jones Jr, Willie Pep, and Whitaker are all frontrunners for the #1 spot, and I do lean a tad towards Whitaker :conf

 

Because he usually dominates regardless. Floyd getting cornered/up against the ropes are often some of the most interesting moments of his fights.

 

His guard is simply amazing. By itself his guard is one of the best ever. He does great work against the ropes, but on the outside chance he drops a round, it's also often backing up against the ropes. So on ring generalship alone, Floyd is far above most fighters, but among the very best is a stretch IMO.

 

I'd pay a large sum to see how he'd do when cornered or fighting off the ropes against a level of operator such as Duran (135-147) or Chavez (130-140). I think it'd spell certain disaster and he'd probably be best inclined not to take it there. This is always one of your biggest points on those matchups, but like rip alluded to (in a surprising solid post), sometimes it really feels Floyd allows it to happen by design. He's been very effectively pressured, but he never seems to lose his poise there, he evades, guards or blocks a majority of the shots thrown at him and his infighting ability, accuracy and punch variety shines.

 

I think Floyd's comfortable wherever the fight goes, and his inside game has really come to the forefront in recent years, so getting pushed up against the ropes isn't really going to get to him much. Still, as we saw against Castillo and Cotto - probably the two best pure pressure fighters he's faced - he can be forced there when it suits him more to keep things in the middle of the ring. He doesn't have complete, total control of space against high level guys (or borderline high level, in Floyd's case) quite like Whitaker or several others. I really rate Mayweather as a ring general, but I don't think he's in the running for very best ever.

 

Yup. Many times he'll walk a fighter right into that right hand, and set himself comfortably on the ropes while evading shots and returning fire with a simple swivel of the hips. Of course sometimes he's rushed there too and may get scored on, but it's not long before he settles in.

I'd pay more than I could afford, I think. Duran or Chavez would improvise on Floyd's guard in ways never seen before, and it would push Floyd to try and do the same. In particular, both of them had a real talent for pressing their left shoulder/forearm onto an opponent's right hand and smothering it (Chavez did this to great effect against Rosario and rendered it useless). Floyd's left is often stuck defending his body (unless he pushes off with his forearm first), so the right also tied up while either of them lean their weight on him would open up opportunities to the body not usually there. I'd expect that Floyd in turn would have to let his hands go much more freely, which itself creates another unusual dynamic.

Spot on.

 

Also what do you two look like? I'm trying to imagine us downing pints and laughing the night away and telling stories on stool chairs at a bar but I can't get an honest picture. I used to picture you as your avatars and now that's all ****ed up, Floyd don't drink.

 

never.