Has there ever been a more dominant SMW than Ward?

I wish Calzaghe had a punch and a better personality. But yea, Ward is a close second.

RJJ would be #1 if he took boxing more seriously.

 

I agree with you that Roy's 168 resume lacked depth. So I have no problem with him not being classed as the greatest at 168 based on accomplishments. But I think he was unbeatable at 25/26 at 168, and it was just circumstances why he didn't stay longer.

I don't agree with your Kessler and Ward analogy though, because in my opinion, Toney was better than Benn, Eubank and Collins, and Roy beat him easily.

Life is all about circumstances and opportunities. Roy, Ward and Joe are/were all great fighters. But all of their circumstances were completely different.

Roy beat the best guy at the weight in my opinion, in embarrassing fashion. But then he couldn't deal with King, so decided to have a new challenge at 175.

Joe fought in a weak 168 division for the most part, and never moved up to 175, despite struggling to make the weight.

Andre is now fighting in a stronger more exciting 168 division, and is in no hurry to move up.

If Roy had've stayed at 168 under different circumstances, the only belt Joe would have had was the WBO.

If Roy had've been in the Super Six, he'd have cleared it out easily.

So it's just circumstances.

I don't mind Joe being hailed as the greatest 168 fighter ever, but I don't personally see it as a great achievement. That might sound silly, but the reasoning behind that, is because Joe in my opinion, was far too good to be fighting in that division between 99-2006. Between those years it was weak. Joe had the ability to be mixing with the 175 guys. It took him ten years to unify the division. Look what happened with Roy? He couldn't unify the division, so he moved up. Joe couldn't unify the division against Ottke, but instead of him moving up like Roy, he just waited and waited, until the opportunity came round again. The opportunity finally came around after Ottke had retired, and his belts had been vacated. But if Ottke had have carried on fighting, there's a chance that Joe might not have unified the division in 2007. It would have been more of an accomplishment for Joe to have moved up to 175 to try and win a belt. So I don't think that cleaning out a weak division, and taking ten years to do it, is that great.

So to be honest, it was Joe's lack of ambition as to why he cleared out the division.

Like I've mentioned already, after the Toney fight, Roy only really had two choices. Either stay and fight Collins for his WBO belt, and stay in the division, or move up to 175.

Now if he'd have stayed and fought the kind of guys that Joe did, he would have been trashed. If he'd have fought the Woodhall's and the Reid's etc over and over, and not moved up, he'd have got more criticism than he's had already.

But he showed ambition and moved up.

Again, Joe was in the same situation as Roy when he couldn't unify with Ottke, but again he decided to stay.

But then here we are, praising Joe for clearing out the 168 division.

He's basically being praised, for doing what Roy got criticism for.

If Roy had've stayed at 168, Joe and Ottke would have achieved nothing at the weight. Those guys are lucky that Roy just passed through.

 

Joe beat Hopkins at LHW didnt he ?

 

I agree I also think at 168lbs RJJ was unbeatable. The way he dispatched Malinga when both Benn and Eubank struggled with him says a lot about RJJ's ability and power at 168lbs. Watching him in his prime always blew my mind, he did so many things wrong, off balance, trapped on the ropes but it didn't matter what he did wrong he was like a magician and would get out of trouble in a flash and you would wonder how he did it.

I think the Ward/Kessler comparison to RJJ/Toney is valid. Kessler at the time much like Toney was seen as the best super middle and I think Toney's resume at 168lbs was no better than fighters like Eubank or Benn's. So Toney's position as number 1 at super middle at that time was down to general consensus and opinion rather than him proving himself number 1 by beating the best in the division. I much prefer the gauge a fighters ability by who they have actually beaten rather than opinion.

 

I dont see Roy as unbeatable. Jones was a great natural talent but he didn't have great fundamentals and Griffin beat him by taking advantage of his lack of fundamental skills and frustrating him so much that he got himself DQed. Now, this method would only be a one-off way of beating and is only likely to work once in fifty or so times, but it is possible. I think Collins at his best might have been able to manage it, but Benn, Nunn, Liles and Eubank wouldn't - they'd have a puchers chance but little else.

I know its somewhat clutching at straws but it happened in real life with Griffin so it is proof that Roy wasn't perfect.

I'd have to disagree with that as well as I personally dont see Toney as better than Eubank, Benn or Collins. He certainly has bigger names on his resume but I think if he'd fought any of them they would have been bloody close fights. And, of course, Toney's lack of consistancy and weight problems really made him somewhat of an unstable champion. He did, probably, have more talent than the others - except Jones - but Liles and Benn performed more consistantly as champions, and though Eubank was inconsistant in his performances he didn't have those weight problems holding him back.

That said, Roy's domination of Toney definitely carries more weight as a great win that Ward's domination of Kessler.

Though it isn't entirely a fault at his end, the fact that Jones's resume lacks Benn, Nunn, Liles, Little, Eubank and Collins would, in my opinion, rule him out as a more dominant Super Middleweight than Ward. Yes, his win over Toney was great and better than anything Ward has, but in arguably the strongest ever era in that division he only claimed one top scalp before moving on.

Calzaghe had a strong start with wins over Eubank, Reid and Woodhall, then years of mediocrity with the only meaningful scalps of Mitchell and Brewer to his name as Ottke refuse unification fights and the WBC title was changing hands too rapidly for anyone to pin down a top fighter from that organization, then he finished strong with wins over Lacy, Bika and Kessler. He missed out on Ottke and a whole host of lesser fighters who were in the world title picture but the fact that he is to date the only man to have held every siginficant title in the division, and the fact that he reigned undefeated for so long and has several of the divisions top fighters of his era on his resume does make him Ward's only real rival for this category.

Ward has beaten every top Super Middleweight of his era except Bute - who he turned down and Froch ruined as a top fighter anyway - but Ward's era only has three standout fighters and one of them is a relic from Calzaghe's era. It's a stronger era than Calzaghe long one because it has three top fighters - Ward, Froch and Kessler - instead of two - Calzaghe and Kessler - but beyond them its no stronger than it was in Calzaghe's day. And proof that it is no stronger is that Ward is now faced with the same stalemate Calzaghe faced with Ottke where there is one obvious opponent, the next best guy in the division, but the fight doesn't look likely to happen because of backroom stuff so he's left with no credible opposition in his own division.

As far as who is more dominant in their particular era between Ward and Calzaghe, I actually have to go with Ward. While both of them had to deal with a lack of credible opposition in their division with Ward it is a case of him having beaten anyone that was credible except Bute who lost his credibility elsewhere, whereas with Calzaghe it was a case of him being unable to get the fight with the credible opponent he had left in his division.

 

I don't follow.

 

You said he never moved up

 

"Joe fought in a weak 168 division for the most part, and never moved up to 175, despite struggling to make the weight."

Yes he did he was lineal champion at SMW and LHW before he retired

 

Oh right, sorry, I meant that he didn't move up like Roy did when faced with the same problem.

Roy couldn't unify at 168, so he moved up to 175.

Joe for whatever reason couldn't unify with Ottke, but instead of moving up like Roy did, he decided to stay.

That was his decision, and he was entitled to do that. But he was far too good to be fighting in that weak 168 division, when he could have fought at 175 with Roy etc.

 

Of course, I meant that he didn't move up when he had early opportunities to.

 

Ward has fought no one of note, compared to Joes resume it looks pretty poor. Froch, Kessler and a weight drained Dawson are the highlights. All decent wins but to call him the most dominant SMW ever is a bit of a joke really.

 

Ward may well suppass Joe at the weight but he hasn't yet. I don't think it's any secret that Joe's opposition until later in his career wasn't great but he fought who he could and was a great fighter.There would be no shame in Ward surpassing him anyway, he's another special fighter, would have been a very interesting match up.

 

You've made some fair points. :good

With regards to Kessler and Toney, you're right, Toney hadn't done a lot at 168. But the whole world knew that he was a world class fighter, because he'd beaten McCallum, Reggie Johnson and Michael Nunn, who were elite guys. He was 26 years old, he was undefeated, and he was considered one of the best fighters in the world.

Kessler is a very good fighter, but I wouldn't say he was great, and going into the fight against Joe, he'd beaten nobody of note. His biggest wins were against Bayer, Andrade and Mundine.

With regards to Benn and Eubank, yes their 168 resumes may have been better, but not their overall resumes. In my opinion, Toney was a better fighter than those two and has proven it.

 

MAJR,

I respect your opinion, as always. Roy was frustrated by Griffin, who was a great counter puncher. But he was well on his way to winning the fight, before his act of stupidity. But that was up at 175. Roy at 168 when he was 25, to me was unbeatable. He was still great at 175, but not as great as what he was at 168. Again, I respect your opinion, but I don't see how Collins would have had a chance of beating him. Benn would have been very dangerous early, and would have had a 5 round window in my honest opinion. Eubank's style would have caused Roy trouble, as would Liles who was a great fighter, and a huge southpaw. But Collins didn't have the style or the speed in my opinion to trouble Roy. He wasn't fast, he wasn't a big hitter, but he had a will of iron and a great chin. But that wouldn't have been enough. I've seen a lot of Collin's fights, and I don't see how he would have troubled him.

Again, I don't think Roy was as great at 175, as what he was at 168. But I think that because Roy was so dominant, the Griffin fight gets blown out of proportion. It was shocking at the time to see Roy having problems. But Griffin was a very good fighter, and again, if Roy hadn't have been stupid, he'd have clearly beaten him anyway. Plus, we saw what happened in the rematch.

Toney was his own worst enemy. After his mid 20's, he never really fought to his full capabilities, and was constantly struggling with his weight. But at his best, he was better than Eubank and Benn, and was just on another level completely to Steve Collins. I like Collins, but I think he rose to fame by beating faded versions of Benn and Eubank. Toney was a much better fighter in my opinion. Toney beat guys at 160, that Eubank would never have had any intentions of fighting. I think Benn would have fought anyone, but he wouldn't have beaten the guys who Toney did, and he wouldn't have beaten Toney in my opinion. Collins lost to Johnson, and McCallum, and wouldn't have had a chance of beating Nunn in my opinion. I also don't think he could have beaten Toney either.

Clearly.

That's fair enough, but again that's just due to circumstances. Nunn only had 2 fights at 168 while Roy was there, and he lost one of them to Liles. We know that Eubank didn't want it, and Liles and Benn were King fighters. I agree that he should have fought Collins though, but after Roy had beaten Toney, and couldn't unify, he wasn't bothered about Collins and his WBO belt.

Fair enough. But I just don't see it as a huge achievement that Joe cleaned out the division, because a lot of fighters just passed though the division, and a few bypassed it completely. There's no way Joe would have either retired undefeated, or cleaned out the division if Roy had stayed there, with the likes of Nunn and Liles etc, and Hopkins had have moved into the division. Joe was lucky in my opinion, that the division was weak, and was seen as a stepping stone. You need to put things into context. It took Joe ten years to unify, and when he finally did, it was against a guy who beaten nobody of note. Joe was a great fighter. But he cleaned out a weak division, because he wasn't interested in fighting up at 175. His lack of ambition is one of the main reasons that he's accomplished more at the weight than what anyone else has.

I agree, but Ward is only 29, and he'll probably move up soon. Joe should have moved up to 175 at that age, after there was nothing else to achieve at 168, and they were great potential fights at 175. Joe wasn't psychic. He didn't know that Lacy and Kessler would be emerging in 5 years time.

Fair enough, I respect your opinion, and again everything needs to be taken into consideration. Stats don't allow for circumstances.