is rocky marciano totally underrated in this forum?

Who ever beat the best version of anyone? Did Ali beat the best Liston? Did Louis beat the best Braddock and Schmeling? Did Liston beat the best Patterson? Did Holmes beat the best Norton? Did Lewis beat the best Holyfeild? Did Johansson beat the best patterson? Did Demspey beat the best Willard? Or did Tyson the best Thomas and Spinks? Walcott, Charles and Moore were at least as good as any great name on any other great fighters record when they were beat in title fights.

What kind of predictable, longwinded hogwash are you trying to sell here? You can make a case why any fighter lost a fight, what you cant argue with is if that fighter was in the best spot at that time BECAUSE HE EARNED THAT SPOT then he was still a very good fighter, worthy and capable of emulating something simular to their best results. If you cant believe your own eyes and see that Charles Walcott and Moore fought like ATG fighters with elite timing, speed, reactions and power whilst losing to Marciano then I dont know what to say. A flat performance? It takes two to tango, these were great fights. A flat performance cannot contribute anything towards a great fight.

Fighters like Walcott and Moore languished for years treading water during the war years. All contenders did because there was nowhere to go when titles were frozen. They stayed busy clocking up gentle miles facing the same guys over and over to put food on the table. Then the war ended the titles became available and all these contender circuits opened up for real. The investor's put their money up and were finaly able to move all these "mothballed" contenders. careers only got going after the war. They were in limbo and did not win big fights untill then. They were not "less than they could be"! they were genuine post war fighters - just like Marciano. Moore and Walcott were both curent world champions when facing Marciano, how can you be "less than you could be" whilst being a world champion? The curent Ring magazine fighter of the year was also "less than he could be"? Do me a favour!

Charles was two years older than Marciano and still capable of important wins. His first fight with Marciano was an epic war because he was still great! If Charles was much better before he was champion does that mean fritziec Fitzpatrick and elmer ray were better fighters than Marciano or does it just mean Charles had not reached his best when he struggled with them? Nobody but Walcott had beat Charles DECISIVELY in seven years and ezzard had even beat him twice already.
If Charles was a car with too many miles on the clock he could not have fought like that. 15 harder paced rounds than he had ever fought. He was the same age (and same rating) as Ali when facing Foreman. was 32 year old former champion Ali "less than he could be" for his signature win against Foreman? Ali was no more removed from championship form than Charles was against Rocky.




cheers.

 

Today's young whippersnappers don't realize that what nature gives a large dreadnaught,
namely bulk and strength, mother nature takes away in flexibility and dexterity...in days gone by [ yes there was boxing before the boob tube], fighters constantly fought and beat much ,much larger fighters. I can cite dozens of great fighters spotting battleship heavyweights 15-50 pounds and whipping them and in other divisions as well...A Barbados Joe Walcott, a Ruby Robert Fitz, a Jack Dillon, a Sam Langford, a Jack Dempsey, a Harry Greb, a Mickey Walker, Henry Armstrong, my favourite Joe Louis
also decimated much larger men than he. Later on Charley Burley had no trouble with larger men. Even a light hitting Bob Pastor kod a Lem Franklin, much larger than he...
Today some posters are obsessed by weight, weight and more weight...They should study history I say....Give me a Jack Dempsey, a Sam Langford or a Joe Louis anyday.
Maybe they don't have as much heft in one blow but they will get there first and often
most anytime...Yes there WAS boxing BEFORE television...Look it up...

 

well said mr burt. :good

It used to be competition that made great fights, and great fights made great fighters. Today the structure of the heavyweight division has changed. fighters no longer have to fight their way out of the clubs circuit that you remember so well. Seasoning was such back then that you couldnt nuetralise a skill advantage with just size alone. Heavyweights who were bigger got outpaced and were found out by elite fighters. It wasnt that they were less athletic than giants today they just could not match the fitness of the better heavyweights.

 

:good killed

 

:good

 

most of the eyewitness I spoke to said there was no doubt Rocky won both fights but did not look great in the first fight vs Lowry but absolutly won with the harder punches.

As far as LaStarza my uncles were big LaStarza fans and from NY they were rooting for Roland but all said it was clear that the KD and the power shots and the fight made Rocky a clear winner even though the fight was in NY (where Roland was a big draw), my uncles were hoping for a Rocky loss because they still did not forgive him for stopping there young star Carmine Vingo but Rocky grew on them after that fight. There was no doubt in there minds that this MA kid was the better man

 

I'm sorry but the Klits are a joke. A blight on boxing. If Vitlay cared about boxing one iota he would relinquish the title he holds by politics and not accomplishment.

Comparing them to Marciano is disrespectful to Rocky.

 

I dont think he can be underated too much. Most lists I see have him in the top 5. Definitely in the top 7 or 8.

If anything he is probably a little over rated. Certainly a great fighter though. A polarizing figure to say the least.

To the OPs point. Rocky did beat some good black fighters but there may be some resentment that they were not at their peaks. They were still good fighters and tough outs for the most part. Just not in their physical primes. Charles, Moore and Walcott were all on the downside. A simple fact that all the long winded posts in the world wont change.

 

Always fought fair? Rocky was one of the dirtiest fighters of alltime. Hitting on the break or after the bell. Whether it was intentional or not it was still illegal.

I agree with what you stated about his conditioning. He was uncommon in his stamina and relentless attack.

 

It dosnt take a long winded post to explain that Moore and walcott were producing their best boxing at that time, nor does it take a long winded post or much research to discover this on looking over their records. Charles was operating at championship level and producing championship quality wins also, I dont see how he was any more faded than Ali was against Foreman. An outstanding contender and Former champion who had turned a corner.

 

This! This! This! I disdain internet intifadas and so ignore the Klit lovers but honestly they've never been above average. Thank you for seeing that and yes Rocky was always a true champ,though I think the era also had something to do with it. It seemed to bring out the boxer ethic better than these feminised ***gotised times we suffer-can anyone from the era,add to this?

 

Rocky Marciano .

Rate him however you want to rate him .

Know this. He had the greatest engine ever in heavyweight history

10/10 engine

 

in a conventional sense Rocky was awful. i think this is what people cant get past. they look at him and see what appears as wildness and cannot entertain the thought of this in an ATG regard. it must be a poor era. old, small men. etc etc.

if this was true even the power and durability would not be enough but still they rationalise even this point and decide only a poor era could explain such dominance.

i think the truth is rockys style, what is seen as technical flaws, all worked for him in a completely unconventional way. i think it's easier to accept rocky was a one off. an unconventionally effective fighter of genuine talent and substance who knew what he was doing. he just did not do it in a conventionally aesthetic way that looks smooth or pleasing to the eye.

he was a great fighter because it worked for him. rocky had undeniable success at the highest possible echelon. he just did not look like what is most peoples idea of a great heavyweight champion .


JERSEY JOE WALCOTT

"Joe could take you out with combinations...Marciano was a one-punch artist. He threw every punch like you throw a baseball, as hard as he could. I have to say, with all respect to Joe, Marciano hit harder."


HARRY "KID" MATHEWS

"He was a great puncher, one of the best of all-time. He just threw one punch after another, and all of them were hard."


EZZARD CHARLES:

"Rocky numbs you all over. Wherever he hits you, he hurts you; on the arms, the shoulders, the neck and the head."


JOE LOUIS

"It hurt to bump into him....He hits harder than Max Schmeling...this kid is tough enough to beat anyone."


and


"The Rock didn't know too much about the boxing book, but it wasn't a book he hit me with. It was a whole library of bone crushers."


ARCHIE MOORE

(When asked which punch hurt him most)

"Man they all hurt."


and


"After a fight with Marciano, it felt like you had been beat all over the upper body with a blackjack or hit with rocks....He could hurt you, sure, but it was the quantity of his punches. He just had more stamina than anyone else in those days. He was like a bull with gloves."


ROLAND LASTARZA

"I would throw a hard punch, then he would throw a hard punch. The difference was that Rocky would throw 10 more. He just never stopped throwing punches."


PHIL MUSCATO

"Dan, I can still feel his punches. He kept punching me in the upper arms until I could no longer hold them up to defend or throw punches".


BERNIE REYNOLDS

"He had amazing strength. Any time Marciano hit you, he could hurt you. He didn't do much flicking; every punch was a knockout punch."


And, the opinion of JACK DEMPSEY:

"What everyone forgets is that Marciano can punch harder with a right hand than any modern-day heavyweight. In his first fight with Walcott, Rocky needed only one blow to win the title. The power in his right scrambled Jersey Joe's brains at Chicago."

"I've scored my share of knockouts along the way, but more often than not my opponents got up after being knocked down and had to be knocked down repeatedly. The same is true of Joe Louis. But Marciano needs only one solid smash and it's all over.

That's why I say Rocky Marciano is the hardest-hitting heavyweight champion I have seen."


Holmes was asked in 2009 who he thought his toughest opponent would be -


Holmes- "Well, I'd say Marciano right now because he throws punches from anywhere, from anywhere, from any direction. And he was strong and he took punches. Only difference from now and then is they would've stopped the fight because he be cut, he be bleeding, you understand so they would've stopped the fight, so I'd be victorious. But because he's short and throws punches from left field, from right field, from center field, I mean he just throws and keep coming. He takes the licking and keeps coming."

 

This one is often bracketed with most of those as well. This quote was deffo pre 2009 sometime -

Carmine Basilio "Today he’d look like a midget against some of those heavyweights around, but he’d clobber them all. A great fighter, very tough."