Does anyone believe Fraziers greatness took a hit with his losses to Foreman?

That's interesting. He's in your top 12 of all-time but you don't consider him a great fighter, except for on that one night of his career when he was fortunate to beat an unprepared Ali.

I'd probably rate him in the top 12 as well, and everyone in my top 15 I'd have no hesistations about being GREAT fighters on quite a consistent basis.

I guess it boils down to different definitions of greatness.

 

If Ellis beat Frazier then beat ALi you could say he cleaned out. The effort of facing guys back to back burnt ellis out. Frazier beat the same guys. Chuvalo, bonnavena, Quary but then he also beat Ali and Ellis. It is a clean sweep of the 1968-71 period. The effort burned him out too. He was ripe for Foreman. That Foreman was not ready for Ali kind of proves just how ripe Frazier was.

 

Thats what I thought..

 

I consider Frazier a great fighter.
Ali was very very good that night but imo ,would have been better with another couple of fights under his belt. Also imo, he would then have won. Something to consider after nearly 4 years ring absence, Ali came back straight in the deep end against Quarry.
After Fotc, Frazier fought two no hopers in two years.

Yes it does boil down to what you define as great , imo it is one of the most over-used words in the English language,and usually without justification.

 

Ali had 15 difficult rounds with Bonavena, the KO salvaged what was a pretty awful fight but the rounds would have shook the cobwebs off. It was excelent prep for Frazier. AN awkward strong wild man trained by Gil Clancy before facing the more conventional Frazier.

ALI must have thought those Bonavena rounds would mean he still had 15 round legs so he set off at a 1960s pace. He actually started faster against Frazier than he did against Folley before the exile. He wanted to punish Joe but it back fired because he never figured Frazier could land at range even at his fastest and freshest in round one.

Frazier always would have been wrong for ALi first time around. ALI did not respect Frazier or his desire then. The extra fights still would not ensure an ALi win because first time around ALi would still approach it the same way.

 

You can say what you like, as often as you like,, but it will not make it true.:nono

 

Maybe flash knockdown was the wrong words to use..But still I say Ali wasnt that hurt.

 

5 fighters at that time may not have been enough for Frazier to mark his territory..But I wonder had Joe elected to participate in the HW Tourny for the title if people would feel different about his resume??

 

Funny thing is, anyone with You Tube and a stopwatch can time the delay and see that it was negligible. Myths die hard even in the face of hard evidence.

 

What hard evidence? It's impossible to say if the footage was altered or not, as long as there's no full and complete film on the incident, which I'm pretty sure it's the case, it's a matter of opinion.

 

Nobody really..:huh

 

And, of course, no amount of hard evidence (video + stopwatch ect) will ever satisfy some who likes his myths couched in conspiracy theories.

 

No one, but they don't have fan boys on here claiming they did,and that is the whole point.
Actually Ali goes pretty close to doing it because apart from Eddie Machen when Ali was coming up , he pretty much took care of everyone.

 

That's your opinion and it's exactly what it is, an opinion. There's no real evidence that it was indeed a few minutes break, but there's also not enough footage to claim that whatever happened it only bought Ali just a few more seconds. Ali does look hurt walking to his corner and I strongly believe that if it happened early in the round or halfway through it, he would have been knocked out for good. The use of smelling salts seems to be accepted as a fact, and that alone should have resulted in a disqualification loss for Ali. There's also Dundee who apparently admits he did tore the glove even more to buy his fighter some time. You may believe whatever you want, but it's clear this story didn't just come up out of nowhere, therefore it's quite possible there's some truth behind it.