Marciano v Liston

He could re-tune and psych himself up for Ingo II, but somehow couldn't repeat that trick for Liston. He should have at least improved in his return showing as Frazier did for Foreman II, but didn't reveal a more appropriate template for Sonny until Chuvalo.

 

The kind of tense, agitated state Floyd was in for both Liston fights, I don't think he could have beat any capable fighter like that. With another man, any other man in the other corner Floyd might have felt more like fighting. Liston had a hex over him, gave Floyd the creeps. Sonny beat nothing both times.

 

That's my take: The same things that made Foreman a "bridge too far" for Frazier do the same for Marciano against Liston. It's one of the very few "style" matchups that's almost impossible to overcome.

 

He really shouldn't have been favored though: At that point Liston had actually beaten the better fighters (Williams, Machen, ect.) while D'Amato spent Patterson's title run steering him away from dangerous opponents. Not slighting Patterson here as he was a hell of a fighter, it's just that his resume to that point wasn't very impressive.

 

Marciano would win by KO. Liston is a legend for way he died and mystery around his losses to Ali.

 

No Patterson beat #1 Moore, # 1 Jackson, #3 Harris, #1Johansson. The mcneely and London fights were tune ups.

Floyd only missed machen and folley.

Machen and Folley drew then ingo knocked machen out. Flattened him. This eclipsed Liston beating unrated valdes and unrated Williams.

Listons big names were Harris, machen and folley. That's it. All champs have wins like that on their back catalogue. Jack sharkey beat better men.

 

I put no stock at all in rankings, unworthy fighters get ranked all the time. Moore was well past-it and left his best years back at light-heavy. Jackson and Harris were not quality contenders. Williams and Machen were better challenges than any of them regardless of whether they were ranked or not. Patterson only has Ingo and he got slaughtered by him the first time around. Truth is, Cleveland Williams smashes Johansson.

 

Underrated by who? If anything Liston is overrated on these boxing forums.

Liston was very good but the best fighters he beat were pretty small.

Early in his career he won two close fights vs. Johnny Summerlin. He suffered a broken jaw and lost a decision to the 180 Lb. Marty Marshall... he also beat Marshall twice (once by KO).

He beat the overhyped Cleveland Williams twice (both times by KO).

His best wins were Floyd Patterson (KO1 x2), Zora Folley KO3, and Eddie Machen W12.

Yes, Liston was a little taller, had a longer reach (almost everybody had a longer reach than Marciano), and was heavier by about 25 Lbs. This wouldn't be a big factor IMO.

Marciano went 49-0 (43) overall, 7-0 (6) in HW World Title Fights, and 6-0 (5) vs. Hall of famers. He was down just twice and in both fights he eventually stopped his opponent. He beat Louis, Walcott x2, Charles x2, and Moore. Only Charles went the distance (he stopped Charles in their rematch).

Liston lost 4 times (50-4 (39)), was stopped 3 times, went 2-2 (2) vs. Hall of Famers (beat Patterson x2, lost to Ali x2), and went just 2-2 (2) (those fights with Ali and Patterson) in HW World Title Fights.

Marciano by late round stoppage or close decision.

 

Johansson didn't fight many well known fighters but he only lost to Patterson (who he did KO in their first fight). He gave Patterson plenty of problems in their other 2 fights as well. Johansson dropped Eddie Machen 3 times and stopped him in the 1st round. Say what you will, but Ingo could punch.

Cleveland Williams sucked and is very much overrated.

 

Funny ... ... I"m streaky with this stuff ... predicated on who is involved, how interesting the thread , how busy I am at the moment , ect ... seems like here it goes again ...

 

Look, Floyd was nothing if not brave ... he got back into the ring w both Ingo and Sonny after terrible defeats ... the difference in the results was that Ingo was a one trick pony who did not win one second of the second fight, was totally outclassed and destroyed . He went on to do better in the rubber match but Floyd was coming down and still flattened Ingo ... Floyd could go into the ring with a bat and he would still not make it through a round with Liston. Sonny was a completely superior fighter , levels above Ingo in everything but looks ...

 

In 56-57, Jackson and Moore were better heavyweight fights than Machen or Williams. Moore really didn't start to finally slide until after the Patterson loss anyway, though he remained a dominant LHW Champion and good HW contender.

In 58, Harris looked like a better opponent than Machen/Folley as well, after they stunk out the place in their eliminator. Harris' win over Pastarno also tops any of their wins at this time. Both Machen and Foley best wins at this point were over the slipping Valdez and Baker(whom Harris also beat).

The Liston fights you are referencing didn't happen until 1960, 3-4 years later than the Patterson opponents you are bashing. At this point, Patterson's wins over Ingo trumps Liston's victories over Williams and Machen. Williams may or may not smash Ingo, but we can't rate guys on fantasy fights, all we know is that Ingo had the better wins and record at this time.

 

Harris couldn't last one round with Liston.

 

Neither could Patterson..

But at any rate, Harris losing to Liston in 1960 doesn't hurt him as a challenger in 1958, when he looked to be the best available top rated contender to Patterson.

 

The question was who had the better wins at the time of Liston vs Patterson not who had the better wins as of 1957. Liston vs Patterson was in 1962 so it doesn't really matter whether Machen or Williams was ranked in 57 or not, it only matters how they were regarded at the time Liston fought them given that they were a major part of his resume when he stepped into the ring with Patterson in '62.

And by the way, saying fighters like Jackson are weak entries on a resume is not bashing. For an example of bashing, see the earlier claim by another poster that "Cleveland Williams sucked and is very much overrated". Now THAT is bashing.