Burt says to name the bums Robinson fought in his PRIME and you start by citing two guys from 1964? Do you really think that Robinson was in his prime in 64? Of the guys you cite, I look at their records when they fought Robinson and it appears that you don't know the difference between a bum and a journeyman. Seems like you see everyone that's not a hall of famer as not "any good". Jean Walzack was undefeated in his first 30 fights, was he a bum then too? His record was 44-16-2 when he fought Robinson the 1st time. How is that the record of a bum? His career reads like that of a prospect who was pushed in the deep water too quickly. If Vic Dellicurti (30-19-6 when they first met) was a BUM, how did he go the distance with Robinson three times? If Wilf Greaves (34-20-1) wasn't ANY GOOD, how was it that he floored Robinson in both of their fights? At least 100 bums on his resume? You can go right down the line and see that the clear majority of the guys he fought from start to finish had winning records. I can think of a guy who was ko'd in his first pro fight. He was 5-3 at the end of his second year; 15-4-5 by the end of his 3rd year. He went 14-1-1 in his fourth year to improve to 29-5-6. Then he lost 3 of his next 4, going to 40-8-7 in his fifth pro year. He dropped another two in a row ending up at 50-11-7 six years in. Someone must have believed in him and he still must have still believed in himself, becasue Henry Armstrong won his next 46 fights including titles at 126, 135 and 147. It's a d@mn good thing that you weren't his manager, because you'd have given up on that "bum" who wasn't "any good" real early.
Estimated world and regional populations at various dates (in millions) 1970 3,692 1980 4,435 2010 6,972
At least be consistent if you're going to take me to task. I mean, it's you who is always going on about how athletically superior the likes of Wlad are to heavyweights of the past, with his near-mythical levels of conditioning and strength. And look at his muscles! But now you spin it all around and insinuate that to be a great heavyweight, you don't need to be a great athlete? Well, I beg to differ. Frazier may not have had a great build for a basketball player and he sucked at swimming, but for his chosen sport he was very athletic. Those short, stubby arms and legs were perfect for his style of fighting. And really...insinuating that Ali and Tyson were not great athletes is a joke, right? I stand by what I said about (for the most part) heavyweight boxing today getting leftovers from other sports. A lot of the so-called prospects are already well into the late 20's or early 30's. Why is that? I do believe that the ball sports (NFL, NBA, Rugby) have been poaching potentially great talent away from boxing. Enticing is a better world. I believe that with their rise in popularity, the heavyweight division has slowly begun to suffer especially in the US and also here in SA. The way I look at it is this: even if you took just the quarterbacks (starting and backups) out of the NFL and trained them to be fighters, you'd have at the very least one or two that would make the grade IE. go on to have a decent pro career. Look to basketball and the same thing. Take just the point guards for instance, train them to be fighters and you'd have a small collection of competent operators who could go on to be something. Even if 90% of them were rubbish, you'd still find a few that would be at least as good as some of boxing's contenders. Rugby...same story. My country for instance had traditionally been pretty decent at churning out fringe contender types who made a few waves in the division. Not very big waves true, but they were in the mix here and there. Coetzee and Sanders both left their mark and had good careers. But that was when SA was in sporting isolation and one of the very few outlets for international exposure was boxing, since the WBA still recognised SA internationally. But when Mandela was released from prison? Can you name a decent heavyweight SA has produced since then? I can't. The athletically blessed big men all take up Rugby now. Nobody talks about or takes up fighting anymore. Personally, I don't think it's a coincidence. All these sports are chock-full of big, athletic men that, even if just 5% of them were to make the grade as fighters, would bolster the heavyweight ranks considerably. If I look at the likes of Jennings, Arreola, Stiverne, Wilder, Pulev, Fury etc. I see nothing about them that makes me think that they're something special. They're average. They're not especially skilled nor are they especially athletic. Nothing they do is remarkable on any level. They're honestly just average, run-of-the-mill fighters. But it goes deeper than just at the pro level. Look at how massively popular college football is over in the States. It's the second most-watched sport in the country! All these kids watching the games on TV are dreaming about becoming the next great running back or wide receiver. None of them are even entertaining the idea of joining a boxing gym anymore. Also, I don't need to travel far to see abject poverty. I've worked in townships over here. Still, guess how many boxing gyms I saw? Not one. Not even one. I saw plenty of little black kids playing football (soccer) though. Thirty years ago boxing was just about as popular as soccer here. Now, soccer completely dominates, and even rugby has surpassed boxing among the black youth in popularity. Honestly, I think it's partly because boxing absolutely sucks at marketing itself. One would think that with the rising popularity of the NBA, that the sport's administrators would be content to sit back on their laurels and let talent come to them, but they don't. Not too long ago, some pretty popular NBA stars (Dwight Howard among them) traveled out here to promote basketball awareness among the township youth. Now it's fair to say that many of the youth probably didn't have a clue as to who these guys were, but they showed an interest. It planted a seed in their minds. Plant enough seeds and sooner or later some trees will grow, even in barren soil. These big ball sports are proactively going out and promoting awareness, developing talent, setting up clinics and the like locally and abroad. Even if you look at MMA, they are creating a brand, and people are suckers for brands. Personally I laugh at all these geezers in their Tap-Out shirts, but people are buying them. It's about branding and creating awareness.
obviously the trend is upwards but a large amount of that increase is in china and india, who dont box
Don't know about USA in particular, but based on boxrec stats there were by far fewer bouts held 30 years ago than last year. And they are pretty complete for the period covering last 30 years. Coincidentally, there wasn't any significant increase in number of bouts after the disappearance of the USSR. 2012 22265 2011 22491 2010 21053 2009 20902 2008 20625 2007 20714 2006 20087 2005 19552 2004 18406 2003 17113 2002 17001 2001 16026 2000 15071 1999 15235 1998 14269 1997 15067 1996 14287 1995 14274 1994 13766 1993 14374 1992 13280 1991 12703 1990 13484 1989 13153 1988 12362 1987 11690 1986 11350 1985 12741 1984 12581 1983 14547 1982 15211 1981 14040 1980 12538
Maybe I'm just looking at the state of boxing in traditionally strong markets then. It's encouraging that there are more fights held globally than in the past. :thumbsup Hey look, I'd love nothing better than to see boxing prosper.
When I was a young lad [no, not during the Lincoln administration], every couple of blocks had a local pro fighter in the 1940s...Times were tough those harsher days, there were no food stamps, no welfare entitlement programs, no medicare nor Medicaid, and boxing was a way out of the poverty that engulfed young males...So many became pro fighters able to make a living fighting in NY for example, where in the NYC area, there was so many boxing clubs that every night of the week sans Sunday there was a boxing card or two operating...The young stronger guys became fighters for the most part, taught by full time boxing trainers who were experts at their job...For example I would go to the famous Stillman's gym on 8th Ave and watch the greatest fighters in the USA guided by famous boxing trainers who knew their stuff, and as a result of all these conditions and opportunities for fighters who had the right stuff, resulted in an era of truly great fighters as SRR ,Pep, Ike Williams, Beau Jack, Gavilan, Bob Montgomery, Sandy Saddler, Billy Graham, the wonderful boxer/puncher Tippy Larkin, and so many others that spawned a "Golden AGE " of boxing...The more pro licensed fighters, the deeper the pool leading to the men on top becoming Hall of Fame fighters...There is not one fighter today that would be a champion in the early 1940s I believe...What does that tell you ?
The TRUE heavyweight champion in the NBA or MLB or NFL? I see these guys take a hard hit and the game is stopped for 2-3-4-5 mins. and longer. You think that just because they are good at one sport that they have the heart and chin to be heavyweight champion? What would have happened the first time one of those guys took a solid shot on the button? They were handed a baseball glove or a basketball or a football at age 5 or 8 or 11. IF they had been given a pair of boxing gloves who knows what would have happened. They might have thrived and we might be talking about all of Lynn Swann's or Henry Aaron's or Larry Bird's great fights and their title defenses. OR the first time they got a broken nose, they might have been running home to mommy...
http://boxrec.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=101907&p=3774209#p3685167 1950 19820 1940 15891 1930 36138 (absolute highest according to boxrec)
No, my proposition, not insinuation, is that one's great athletic gifts are specific to boxing and not translatable to other sports. I find it funny that non-athletes think there is this mythical class who struts about with magical abilities to translate to all sports. As a guy who was pure track athlete, with elite times, I couldn't play football for ****. I could dunk a basketball at 5 foot 10 but could not play that sport either. "Athleticism" is largely sport specific. No, we agree absolutely here. I am just stating that their athletic abilities were great but very sport specific. Only the neophyte or ignoramus believes you can take an athlete who excels at one sport and drop him into another and expect the same level of excellence. Michael Jordan, without his name, would never have made a AAA baseball team. Deion Sanders and Bo Jackson were not very good at the game of baseball but more rode their fame in other endeavors. The stats bear me out. Sergei Bubka, who set a pole vault record that will endure for decades and who was fast enough to qualify on the USSR 4 x 100 team, sucked when he tried basketball. He had an insane vertical leap but could still not figure how to put the ball in the hole. The skill sets and abilities just are not absolutely translatable. Is it really getting the leftovers from other sports that are not located in the USA? A lot of the Eastern European prospects stay in the amateur well into their 20's. Povetkin has an impressive record for his first 15 or so fights but he didn't turn pro until 26. He had prime pedigree. There are few players in the NFL or NBA who make anywhere near the money that Wlad makes. In the NFL none of the contracts are guaranteed (unless you are Mark Sanchez)... And I have seen NBA players try to fight and we are not missing much. No ****ing way. Absolutely not. Do you even go to gyms? Have you ever seen one of these idiot jocks walk off the street and try to spar with a good amateur. They get their asses handed to them. Taking a punch is another level. They are run of the mill until you try to take their place in the pecking order. They are a special breed. If just being a big, good athlete were all it took, why did we have relative midgets like Marciano, Frazier and Tyson ruling the division in the modern times? Was it because the true heavyweight champion was toiling on the gridiron? Or was it that those fighters really possessed the mettle to give and take punches with other big time punchers? Don't take this factor lightly. There are not many who can stand getting pounded in the face everyday by other elites pounders. In fact, there are very few. And 30 years ago no one ever heard of an Eastern European heavy worth a damn but now there a lot fighting gyms, both boxing and MMA. The sport's recruitment base migrates. It has never been inclusive, mostly the domain the US. Meanwhile, how many giant lads from Eastern Europe, Scandanavia, Western Africa, the Pacific Islands were looked over? Have you seen dudes from those places? They get ****ing huge. There is no rising popularity with the NBA. It's popularity has been crashing since the Jordan era ended. They have tried their damnedest to make Lebron the next Jordan but he is not. Contraction is the next phase of that league. I hear your points but you have to put them in a true international context. No one gives a god damn about US football or baseball or even basketball in most of the world, in most of the potential talent pool for heavyweights. Like I said, it's a transitory recruitment pool. And to say that the likes of a Pulev is not talented is just to be ignorant. The guy is very talented.
maybe its shrinking in america, the Nba derives over 20% of its revenue abroad, way more than any other N.american sport and growing. Your other posts miss the point that athletes from other sports have spent their time training in that sport, different sports obviously require different physical cababilities but the reason they dont cross over well has far more to do with not training in said sport, to say bubka was bad at basketball is true, but how much of his life was spent practising basketball? It is good for basketball that the players aren't well trained boxers, if they trained boxing then they would be worse at basketball.
Quote: Originally Posted by fists of fury View Post The way I look at it is this: even if you took just the quarterbacks (starting and backups) out of the NFL and trained them to be fighters, you'd have at the very least one or two that would make the grade IE. go on to have a decent pro career. Quote: seamus: No ****ing way. Absolutely not. Do you even go to gyms? Have you ever seen one of these idiot jocks walk off the street and try to spar with a good amateur. They get their asses handed to them. Taking a punch is another level. so out of 100 guys who walk in off the street and get beat, you guarantee that not one had the physical and mental ability to box, because they get beat by a trained fighter when they are a trained football player?
i agree about the soviet states adding to the pool now, the footage of guys like pap shows they could have been good pro's
