Froch - I don't need to give Groves rematch

To the 1st paragraph - You are putting into the context of what Calzaghe did at the same point but as you said, Calzaghe went up in weight to fight a top 5 p4p ranked fighter to become a 2 weight champ whereas Froch fought some unproven, inexperienced kid who wasn't suppose to have a chance against him.
Plus, the point is Froch isn't giving anyone anything. As mandatory Groves would have got his opportunity anyway. Froch wasn't giving to anyone, he was doing something for himself (keeping the title).

To the 2nd paragraph - The reason Ward should be able to use that excuse and not Froch is because there was no controversy in Froch/Ward whereas there was in Froch/Groves. Rematches are more required when a fight is controversial in some way than when a fight is clear cut and there is no controversy, but I'm sure you already know this.

 

That's hardly anything to do with any of my points though, is it? The point was he was a mandatory challenger and never got his shot at an occupied title. Groves did.

 

What I actuallly said was, if Froch had vacated in ORDER TO FIGHT WARD, then he's fighting to become universally recognised as the division's no. 1, regardless of titles. That was a move he could have made, and in context it is BASICALLY what Calzaghe did, apart from the moving up in weight bit. And isn't 'unproven, inexperienced kid who wasn't suppose to have a chance against him' exactly what Froch was at the time?! Come on, seriously, STOP THE DOUBLE STANDARDS!!! And Froch GAVE Groves the opportunity to come and take the belts off him, as opposed to winning them in a vacant title fight. And to do it in front of vastly bigger audience than would another fight have had, and against a British champion.

I kind of agree with your second point, but as I said in my first post, some points were playing devil's advocate, HOWEVER...if Ward was gonna find the rematch with Froch so easy, and it is by FAR the biggest money fight he could have (maybe moreso pre Froch-Groves, but hey ho), why was he so against it? He could have tried to knock Froch out like he said he would, but went looking elsewhere for less money.

 

Except it's not a move that he could have made. If he could have, he probably would have. The only reason he 'gave' Groves an opportunity is because he didn't have a better alternative.

What double standards exactly? I honestly may have misunderstood what you were talking about with that. The only double standard I see here is that if Calzaghe fights someone like unproven Groves or Froch, he gets sh1t for fighting nobodies/having a sh1t resume etc. If Calzaghe fights guys like Hopkins or Kessler, he gets sh1t for not fighting his young mandatory whereas when Froch fights anyone he is lauded for it.
As I already said above, Froch wasn't giving to anyone other than himself. He was forced to fight Groves as he had no better alternative.

I have no idea how Ward's mind works. He said Bute needed to prove himself, all the LHW guys and GGG do nothing for his legacy/aren't worthy. What I do know is there was no big outcry for a Ward/Froch rematch from anyone apart from Froch himself. I understand you were playing Devils Advocate but I don't think it really works in this scenario.

 

I believe HBO would have paid for fights against Ward, GGG or JCC, so he did have options, but the IBF would have stripped him, and he would then have lost the WBA as well, as he only holds it while he's a unified champ I think? Anyway, he didn't want to go on without his titles, so fought Groves, against McCracken's better judgement as it turned out!

The double standard was more aimed at some other people's opinions, not aimed at you, mate... The double standards are basically anyone with the opinion that a) Saturday's fight proves conclusively that Joe Calzaghe would have KO''d Froch somehow, without acknowledging that he AVOIDED the Froch match by vacating, and what people have said if Froch had vacated? b) That some people are all up Ward and Calzaghe's arses about their comments about the fight, when Calzaghe never fought him, and Ward should be less dismissive of a Froch rematch if he's so easy to beat.

Like I say, not aimed at you mate, but some of the drivel on this forum in the last few days has been so annoying!

Bottom line is Froch took on a mandatory challenger who was young, fast, powerful and British - against his trainer's advice - and took a shellacking for 6 rounds before getting a foothold in the fight. Given his age and his career, he could very easily justify to himself that he doesn't NEED to rematch Groves in the way that Ward claims no NEED to rematch Froch.

Were he to retire tomorrow...well, there's only one guy he never beat, and that's not a bad thing to say about your career. If Froch was younger, or had less miles on the clock, fine, there's obvious question marks if no rematch (by the way, I don't count not giving Dirrell a rematch as remotely relevant given how Dirrell's career progressed from that fight).

I reckon he's to proud for his own good and will give Groves a rematch, but Groves also needs to stop going on about how he's somehow 'owed' it. He could have jumped straight onto Froch after the knockdown, and gone for Groves KO 1 or 2 Froch on his record, but he didn't. At least he got his shot and will go on to make a LOT more money because of it, and will win the titles at some point.

Fair point in your last paragraph, Bub, I would actually be interested to see how quickly Ward would like to take on someone like Groves...that did something to Froch that Ward could only dream of doing in my opinion. That's partly why no rematch would also work in Groves' favour too...if he were to rematch and get genuinely beaten, or had he gone on to get genuinely beaten if the fight wasn't stopped early, Ward can use any bull**** excuse not to fight Groves either, and on a styles make fights basis, I actually think Groves would give Ward a serious f*cking headache. But if Ward never fights him, no doubt that won't tarnish Wards resume in post people's eyes, whereas if Froch doesn't rematch a guy he's already fought, then he's a ***** and his whole legacy is tarnished...that's another double standard - again, not yours!

 

Fair enough. Good post. :good

 

But your "point" is disingenuous. Who cares what the results or decisions were? These decisions were made by officials that were clearly incompetent at best. The general consensus of fight fans is worth so much more than the score cards from either fight. Froch was beaten clearly and comprehensively by Ward. The stoppage on Saturday night was farcical and Froch was very fortunate to receive the win. Those are the points that matter; not how poorly either fight was scored.

 

I've just read your other replies and I do agree with you about the double standards being displayed by some.

 

Yeah he doesn't need to give groves a rematch...but if he wants any sort of credibility he has to. Nothing short of corruption on saturday night and the froch fans with their silly reasonings know it.

 

Thanks! Some of my points were simply to put certain events into context, and highlight some people talking utter rubbish.

To me, I wish the fight Saturday had gone on to a natural conclusion one way or the other.

The fact that it didn't is a shame, but I would hate to see someone like Froch goaded into a rematch if he's not fully recovered or fit for it. Despite the result on Saturday, he actually has nothing left to prove any more. He can retire if he wants, and should receive no stick for it.

 

I wouldn't give him stick for retiring. But I will give him stick for the outright lies he's told since Saturday night. His version of the stoppage is laughable and classless.

 

Last time I checked Calzaghe was slated anywhere outside of the UK for being a coward.

 

Retirement would be fine, he's earned it. Fighting on and ducking Groves would be sheer cowardice.

 

You know what? Let's play a game for a minute:

Let's imagine that, Foster, Hearn (Sr. and Jr.), the 3 judges and the BBBofC are all having a little llove in together. Let's imagine that they cooked up a nice little plan to have Froch keep his titles comewhat may.

Right...fast forward to fight time...

Froch gets dropped, heavily, potentially concussed on the spot within two and a half minutes of round one. He gets up, and gets 10x worse punishment for 5 more rounds. Punishment most fighters would NEVER in a million years be able to withstand and carry on fighting. He doesn't know that Matchroom have arranged a win for him, he carries on through pride, grit and determination.

Even if there was a big Matchroom/BBBofC love in and pre-arranged outcome...Froch still had to walk through hell to get into a position where he was remotely in that fight, and for that - and all his other achievements in the sport - I think he enhances and retains his credibility as a fighter. He didn't stop the fight, and he was no more begging for that fight to be over there and then in the 9th than he was when he was dragging his arse off the floor in round 1.

He fought the young lion in his division, he withstood everything that was thrown at him. Whatever decision he makes now, he can retain his credibility as far as I'm concerned.

 

Frochs had a good career and he's been a warrior no one can take that from him. Yes he can retire if he wants and shouldn't receive any stick for that, but if he's going to speak complete bull**** which he has up to this point, what you actually mean by stick is the truth then he's surely open for it, there's very little truth in anything carls said since the fight