breaking down this heavyweight era and others: Why today stinks!!

JAB5239 · Jan 4, 2014

Elroy said: ↑

The talent level is very similar to Lewis's era and much higher than at any other point in history.

That's just a no-brainer JAB.
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Thats why there are so many potential HOFers in the klit era, right?

Stallion · Jan 4, 2014

JAB5239 said: ↑

Thats why there are so many potential HOFers in the klit era, right?
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Why do you think that Hall Of Fame is something of importance, especially for the European boxers? After all, HOF is not about being skilled and talented, it's generally about leaving an impact on the US boxing scene. And finally, how is anyone supposed to be selected in HOF when there is a guy beating everyone for 10 years? The only logical way would be to defeat that champion and establish a period of dominance yourself. So your argument isn't really placed well.

JAB5239 · Jan 4, 2014

Stallion said: ↑

Why do you think that Hall Of Fame is something of importance, especially for the European boxers? After all, HOF is not about being skilled and talented, it's generally about leaving an impact on the US boxing scene. And finally, how is anyone supposed to be selected in HOF when there is a guy beating everyone for 10 years? The only logical way would be to defeat that champion and establish a period of dominance yourself. So your argument isn't really placed well.
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Let's take another angle than. How exactly is the talent level comparable to the Lewis era. I can show through video evidence fighter today are less defensive, throw less body punches and less combinations. I can also prove there is not the same level of talent amongst the top contenders. Pick the best year of the Klitschko era and I'll do that with the Lewis era and we'll have a civilized debate.

JAB5239 · Jan 5, 2014

Elroy said: ↑

Consider the versions of these opponents that Lewis and Klitschko each fought... Wladimir has way more fights than Lennox and many of Wladimir's opponents are better than what Lennox had.

Haye destroys Grant
Chagaev outboxes Golota
Chambers outslicks Tua
Thompson beats up Tyson

Wladimir and Lennox had 4 common opponents (Botha, Rahman, Mercer, Jackson). Wladimir performed better against 3 out of 4.

Ibragimov has already beaten Briggs and Holyfield.

We could go on!
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Funny you're not taking into consideration the times those fights happened and where those fighters were in their careers. Typical nuthuggerery.

JAB5239 · Jan 5, 2014

Elroy said: ↑

No I did not factor that in for the later things but it still is significant. And the matches I offered hypothetically were at similar career positions to be sure.

Anyway I am not specifically insisting that Wladimir's career opponents were superior than Lennox's, but I am insisting they are comparable.
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Apples and oranges are comparable, doesn't mean they have a lot in common. There were 3 ATG's in Lewis era...only Wlad in his. Contender fought each other more often and there was a larger variety of skills besides jab and lean.

JAB5239 · Jan 5, 2014

Elroy said: ↑

And lets check some other things.

Take their losses, 2 out of 44 and 3 out of 63 about an even ratio.

Only 2 of Wladimir's losses are really legitimate and clear (and he was destroying that opponent anyway)

Of the remaining 2, 1 of them (the bum opponent) he was destroying anyway until he gassed, had never been in those rounds before but he was not outboxed and was not caught fresh. And the other opponent is the only incidence we can claim Wladimir was both outboxed and wasted fresh. But of course there were still circumstances there too with the butt-punch and the fact he was overwhelmed so fast there was no real time for any establishment of skills.

Anyway it should be noted that the southpaw style as well as the speed/aggression/power of Sanders confused him, Lennox never fought a southpaw, remember!

Now in both Lennox's losses, he was both properly outboxed (you can classify McCall in the same boat as Sanders here if you like) and was knocked out cold by a single big shot.

Wladimir always finished a fight on his feet!

Part 2..

Apart from Wladimir's losses, he has clearly outboxed every single one of his remaining 61 opponents and knocked out most of them!

Lennox Lewis whilst establishing dominance, did not always outbox opponents he should have easily. He did not have the discipline or the rigid defence of Wladimir later in his career.

Bruno- was winning on points until he wasted Lewis, should have been a walk over for Lewis.

Tucker- A lazy fighter at times even when prime, was drug addicted against Lewis- did very well.

MErcer- Went life and death with him, a tough opponent but one which not many should fail to outbox, he was not highly skilled.

Mavrovic- 212lbs and no top level experience and a grocery store owner, held his own well against Lewis.

Briggs- Ended up beating him good but was nearly knocked out.

You can really only say Wlad had difficulties with Peter knocking him down and maybe Williamson whom he still managed to outbox before decision.

Again, I would defend Lennox were someone rubbishing him over Wladimir- I'm just pointing out that they are by and large rather evenly matched career wise.
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Mavrovich would have been today's best contender...FACT!! :hey

Wass1985 · Jan 5, 2014

You can talk all you want but the proof is in the pudding, all vlad does his jab, straight right and hug, with the occasional left hook. His opponents are clueless and show no movement, just stand there straight in front of him. Just imagine what a holyfield of the early 90's would have done with the heartless robot.

JAB5239 · Jan 5, 2014

Elroy said: ↑

No he bloddy well would not have JAB you moron! I cannot see Wladimir struggling with that opponent at all to be honest! I could say Williamson would be the top contender of Lewis's era because Wlad had a little trouble with him.

Wladimir's opponents were on average a bit heftier even than Lennox's, they were a bit taller, they had slightly better records even. There were half again as many to be gauged against.

The skill level is exactly the same today as then with no discernible difference imo. I have even heard a respectable sounding guy on this very forum among many others in the real world that the skills today are at a higher level than even the 90's!

Try tell a Russian that the skills are poor today!

They certainly don't look any worse to me!

ATG means jack **** to start with. And we wont know who is an ATG in this era yet until it's over. I think there'll be more considerations besides Klitschko's but even if there isn't, Vitali is definitely an ATG as well whether you like it or not so that makes atleast 2! Only need 1 more.

Of the ATG's Lewis fought anyway, I'd favour Wlad to beat prime and definitely when Lennox beat them, which also raises the issue that Holyfield and Tyson were past there best when he did fight them, raising atleast a little doubt as to who would win prime for prime.
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Mavrovich would have crushed Corrie Sanders. I'd hate to imagin how badly he'd destroy Wlad.

JAB5239 · Jan 5, 2014

Elroy said: ↑

Yeah he was a real thrashing machine that Mavrovich. Lennox must have been blinded by his hot missus in the crowd to not have made an easy night of that overmatched opponent.

Lennox takes on Mavrovic and that's cool, Wladimir takes on Pianeta though and that's a cherry pick. Both were unbeaten but had fought nobody of note.
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Let's see...Povetkin (good opponent), pianeta (never beat a top 10 fighter), Each (never beat a top 10 fighter) , Thompson (decent opponent) and Mormeck (never beat a top 10 fighter...OR.....Holy field 2x (ATG), Mavrovich (never beat a top 10 fighter), Briggs (lineal champion), and Golota ( coming off to DQ beatings of Bows).....you do the math son.

sean1982 · Jan 5, 2014

Genuinely speechless, but i suppose everyone is entitled to there own opinion no matter how bizzare. And i was sure elroy was one of felix's trolling alts..

JAB5239 · Jan 5, 2014

Elroy said: ↑

Holyfield, Golota and Briggs were 3 of Lewis's best opponents you chucked in there with Mavrovic. It was nice of you to throw Thompson and Povetkin in for Wlad but Mormeck and Wach were 2 of Wladimir's easiest, how is that fair? What if we chucked in Haye and Peter instead? Or used Fortune and Butler for Lennox?

Furthermore Mormeck not beating a top 10 fighter is not exactly true, he had just stepped up from CW where he was a champion and beat many top 10 fighters.
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Look at the time frame Einstein.

Stallion · Jan 5, 2014

JAB5239 said: ↑

Let's take another angle than. How exactly is the talent level comparable to the Lewis era. I can show through video evidence fighter today are less defensive, throw less body punches and less combinations. I can also prove there is not the same level of talent amongst the top contenders. Pick the best year of the Klitschko era and I'll do that with the Lewis era and we'll have a civilized debate.
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You got me wrong, I wasn't comparing the talent between the different eras. There has always been talent in every "era", it's just that the more you go into the past, the less equipment, developing/training conditions and experience they had.

My point was that it's completely irrelevant which boxer is or isn't HOF or an "ATG".

On The Money · Jan 5, 2014

OP is a proven k2 hating ***g*t. End thread.

JAB5239 · Jan 5, 2014

Stallion said: ↑

You got me wrong, I wasn't comparing the talent between the different eras. There has always been talent in every "era", it's just that the more you go into the past, the less equipment, developing/training conditions and experience they had.

My point was that it's completely irrelevant which boxer is or isn't HOF or an "ATG".
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You made a fair point, i think i just misconstrued what you were saying and probably got overzealous.

JAB5239 · Jan 5, 2014

On The Money said: ↑

OP is a proven k2 hating ***g*t. End thread.
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No, im proven to educate nuthuggers who base everything on size, records and complexion.

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