How big is too big?

understood, but in keeping with the theme of the thread, I agree, a fighter IS what he levels out at - again (generally speaking), as a younger fighter, one merely passes through a lower weight division, as an older fighter, one is past his peak weight, too hard to make weight, at the end of his career and so on, again this is not that fighters true weight!

so you rank him at his level best (what ever weight that is for that fighter), and ALL successes add to their ranking & greatness, it's not really that hard!

 

How big is too big? I would say anything artificial is too big.

A lot of the increase in size is down to training trends and matching what the best in the division at anyone time are doing. Boxers don’t like giving away both weight and height unless the money is right or they can even things up by using a new diet.

At one time there used to be 5’7’’ middleweights. Where did they go? Into the 140lb division! To me, there is no coincidence that that when the best heavyweight is 240lb the rest of the contenders start bulking up.

There once was a time where being a giant never was an advantage. They just got hit more and tired out quicker.

I hear talk of Lewis Bowe and the Klitchcos being such natural giants but all of them but Vitali won fights under 225 pounds! Taller heavyweights are now cutting less weight than they used to because the shorter ones are so encumbered with artificial weight that there really is no speed disadvantage.

Isnt Boxing is about being able to beat people of comparable size and ability? If there is a weight class out there that depends on beating those of less ability with an artificial size advantage it is proof that the success of the champion owes more to beating those of less ability than of the size advantage itself doesn’t it?

 

I like this post in general, but I want to bring up one or two points.

Firstly, Lewis at 240+...was he really any better than than the Lewis of 228 that fought Bruno, Mason & Ruddock?
I will be in the minority for saying this, but I felt that the 240+ Lewis actually took some steps backwards from his lighter self.
At the lighter weight he clearly still carried a lot of firepower, but was a much better mover on his feet and generally sharper.
The heavier version of Lewis still carried the weight fairly well, but he became flat-footed and often lazy.
Perhaps some of the added weight was a natural progression as he got older, but it seemed to me that there was an emphasis on added size once he started with Steward.

Even Wlad against Puritty...he only weighed 224 there (I think, but it was definitely in that range) and I thought he looked tremendous, and punched with authority. Now okay, 224 for a man of his frame is probably a bit light, but what about 234? Would he not be lean and mean at that weight?

I'm not second-guessing a great trainer like Steward, but I never could figure out why he'd take a fighter that to me seems to have everything he needs, but then slap 20 pounds on him?
Did either fighter need added strength? Did the added weight really do anything for their punching power, which was already formidable?

I saw the change less in Wlad than I did in Lewis. To me, Wlad carried the weight better.
To be honest, I never really liked Lewis at 240+. Once he hit over 250, then that was really pushing it.

My second point is that I think it very much depends on the level of competition for a 6'1" 210 lb. fighter. I wouldn't say those days are gone.*

Once Wlad retires, then I don't really see any significant threat out there for a smaller fighter. Maybe a giant like Fury could maul him and overwhelm him with size, or maybe he could get made to look oafish by a well-conditioned, fast, smaller man like a Holyfield or a Chris Byrd.

*Then again, considering this obsession with bulk, they may be.

 

Perhaps we will get some great 7', 300lbs boxers yet, but for whatever was good in Nikolai Valuev, his lack of gun powder was evident. He couldn't get his body into his shots. He is the ultimate antidote to all those vague commentators who blurt out a boxer's poundage when they start swinging.

More tellingly, men of 250lbs are handicapped also it seems (albeit to a lesser degree). Lennox Lewis, Riddick Bowe and the Klitsckho brothers, for example, all lacked the bodily movement and stamina of a Muhammad Ali or a Larry Holmes. There is quite an obvious trade-off for physicality and power in this case.

There's never been more emphasis on size than there is today which is attributable to the jab-n'-grab method of the men at the top and the can't-fight-a-lick method of the men below. Dereck Chisora actually has some solid features about him with his bobbing style, but he is a poor, a very poor man's Joe Frazier.

 

How big is too big? If we have to pick a number I would say 240. Nobody outside of a few exceptions need to be 240. Take the best all time fighters who never weighed less than 230 and you could not include Lennox Lewis or Riddick Bowe or even Vlad. I think Vitali is it. The sum total of great fighter who never weighed less than 230. One great fighter is not a division. Superheavyweights are kind of a myth.

 

There is a reason why we have weight classes.

Sanctioning fees.

 

Ali called Foreman "The Mummy", not Louis. Louis wasn't flawless, but his footwork got him close to his opponent. That's all he needed. Louis rarely lunged, so that proves the point.

 

I thought Lennox looked and fought best when a bit lighter; maybe the Ruddock fight showed a "perfect" Lennox Lewis?

 

I agree,Lewis was a better athlete with sharper punches and reactions. Around that time I felt he could not decide to be a boxer or a George Foreman type bomber. He could do both. The problem was he would flit between slugging, sharp shooting and on occasion that funny Walcott waltz thing he did.

Once Stewart took over he squared up Lewis's feet more and did away with that clumsy over hand bowling ball right hand out of a side on stance. Manny concentrated on straightening out Lennox's right hands and working from more disciplined gameplans but by then Lewis was a more mature man and getting heavier. Lewis still was as effective but he had been better.

It's like Ali was proberbly as effective in 1974 as he was in 1964 but by different route. The experience made up for a half inch of timing, there was less waste.

 

This is an interesting thread, thank you folks.

Now could we see a dominant 6' 10" power forward type of guy? That is the last height that is at all common, I think it could happen, if a great athlete like Dwight Howard has the fortitude & will. And it would be great to see a smaller guy clean up too.

 

Prime Tyson 5'10" 218lb had the power,speed,chin,defense and endurance to beat ANY current giant.

 

Valuev was to big IMO. It's the weakness of the heavyweight division, that allows this man to win a title and then keep it for as long as he did. I know of his record and knockouts. He was slow and clumsy IMO, and for all his size couldn't punch.

If a contender was out there any good they should have been able to knock this guy out. But they didn't, and to his credit he was a champion. 1 of 4 available titles. Actually more if you include a few others. The heavyweight championship is de-valued.

 

I used to think that 6'6" was about the upper limit where a fighter could be well co-ordinated, move reasonably well, and have decent enough overall skill but some fighters like Vitali have passed that mark. Even Fury doesn't look too bad at 6'9". So I have no idea.

Your observation about Howard is spot on too. The man is massive (6'10", 265 lbs.) and a brilliant athlete. I was shocked at how well he could run the 200m too.
I don't know if he'd be a good fighter, but he is a very, very good athlete. That is always a good base to build on.

One thing I will say though, is that the bigger they become, the less variety we will see in terms of style and technique.
There is no point in such a large man bobbing and weaving, or trying to dance like Ali, or fighting inside.

I find that quite sad.

 

I've said this for ages and have come up with 12 divisions beginning at less than 110lbs for Flyweight and ending in S-HW 225lbs plus...

thats approx 10lbs between division, which is less than the classic 8 divisions and allows for 'inbetween' divisions so to speak.

Fighters also can fight closer to their 'natural' weight and the Real Heavyweight division would still be near it's historic size and weight, and also LESS _UCKEN DIVISIONS!!!