Corbett vs. Jack Johnson

The Courtney affair was an exhibition specifically arranged to demonstrate Edison's Kinetograph they sparred one minute rounds Courtney had a total of 3 fights losing all of them , none with Corbett.
You would look good against Courtney.
Kilrain was a bareknuckle brawler, not a boxer /puncher,his best win is over Lhvy Godfrey .

I dont believe Jeffries demonstrably improved his defence. In his third to last defence when he was 27 he had his face turned into raw hamburger by an ancient ,[39 ,] Fitz. Which proved two things to me 1. Fitz had underated Jeffries first time around , Fitz was half carried home the night before their first fight by William Muldoon he was drunk.2.Jeffries was as easy to hit at 27 as he had been previously , [reports of the fight state the deciding factor was Jeffries weight, strength, and age ]. What I say happened is his opponents were either ****,[Munroe] or had plainly deteriorated ,[Corbett] Munroe was a hyped nothing, Corbett had been out of the ring for 3 years and had won one fight in the last 7 years, and that against McCoy is widely accepted to have been a fake.
Those are not yardsticks to accurately gauge a fighters defensive improvement.
Jeffries took more punishment when a 27 years old champion two fights away from retiring against a 39 years old challenger who had not fought in 2 years than he did in any other fight .This totally contradicts your statement. One boxer has 23 fights for a total of 215 rds boxed the other has nearly 100 fights with around 800 rds boxed.The former ends up looking like a gargoyle the,latter is unmarked. You don't see that as significant?

Maher,like Jackson was an alcoholic.

There were articles in UK newspapers detailing Jackson's decline into alcoholism ,any about all those other 19th century boxers?

 

I think there is no doubt that Jackson was a great fighter when Corbett fought him, the win over Slavin had as much credibility as a World title shot as Corbett-Sullivan in truth. Jackson was the Australian champion who had defeated Godfrey, McAuliffe, Cardiff and Denver Ed Smith while Slavin had the scalps of McAuliffe, Laing, and Kilrain as well as that Smith.

 

Nat Fleisher who watched Jack live considered his defensive boxing skills the best of any of the heavyweights he saw until his death in 1972. Jack Blackburn stated on several occasions that he was uncertain whether his charge, Joe Louis, would be able overcome what he considered great boxing skills in Johnson. He didn't do everything but as far as blocking, parrying, side stepping and feinting he was as good as any after him. Yes Jack knew a few things about boxing.

 

:good:good

 

The Courtney affair was NOT a real fight.I don't know how I can spell that out any clearer.
Thats why it does not feature in Corbetts record on Box rec. Or the Ring Record Book.

I didn't call Kilrain a neanderthal I said he was a bareknuckle brawler. Kilrain was described as out of his depth with Corbett not having a clue how to cope with his scientific moves . He was not some crafty boxer puncher, his forte was wrestling his man over, as Sullivan testified. What's surprising about how well Fitz did is easy to discern and you would have to be remarkably disengenous not to know it. 1. Fitz had not fought in 2 years.
2. He was 39 years old, positively ancient for the times.

Yet in spite of assertions that Jeffries had markedly improved his defence Fitz landed on him at will. I've read the ringside reports of the fight and Fitz gave Jeffries a bad beating . Hype Igoe who was ringside, said it was worse than the Willard/ Dempsey one . The consensus was that Jeffries won because he was too big , too stong and too young for the near 40 years old Fitz who smashed both his hands on his face. Jeffries fought entirely differently in the second Corbett fight he was proactive rather than reactive .Jeffries chased the faded Corbett knowing his legs would not hold out. In their first meeting he was in danger of losing because he tried to counter Corbetts move's until Brady threw Ryan out of the corner and told him if you don't go after him and stop him you will lose your title. Corbett was washed up for the second fight, he had eye problems and the years without ring activity had robbed him of his timing ,reflexes, and most importantly his legs.

 

Ya thats gonna happen!!! Shouldnt u be busy shining Johnsons nob!!!

 

The man who mugs himself everytime he touches the key board.

 

The title was not at stake in the Corbett/ Courtney exhibition.
I'm not going to refer to this again, suffice to say ,show me any reputable source that indicates it was.
Fitz couldn't box with Corbett, he was a sharpshooting puncher ,Corbett made him look silly early in their fight.
What descriptions have you that indicate Kilrain was a good boxer?
I've never seen him referred to as such.
Fitz was not really in the first fight with Jeffries , there was 2 years inactivity before the first fight Fitz was 3 years older for the second . The 3 years age is significant because Fitz was 39 years old by then .

Reading books on Fitz indicates that he was having hand problems quite early on ,plus his then wife was on his case to retire.
eg . He broke his left hand against Ed Dunkhorst.

Reporters noted that in his later fights his power and speed had deteriorated so he did not age that well, [The Fighting Blacksmith, by Denzil Batchelor goes into detail about this.]
After the second fight Fitz was interviewed by the press commenting on his hands he said."look at my hands.The knuckles of both are pushed right back,and broken, smashed on his chin.He is as strong as an ox,and his blows hurt me considerably especially those wicked lefts to the body.I have had trouble with my hands in all my contests,but I have done them in now trying to knock Jeffries out."


I agree a fighter can look very good against moderate opposition ,and that can still have meaningful substance. Dismissing a near 37 years old man who is 30lbs lighter, many years older, and had been retired for 3 years before, his last contest [a fake ] was just 5 rds, previous to that he had been beaten up by Sharkey is never a yardstick however.. In boxing terms Corbett was "gone".

 

Half those guys were just average, Jeffries old and inactive. Johnson handled Klondike physically? Care to produce a report that says that. Clearly NOT in the first fight. McVey was just a teenager for his first two fights with Johnson, and only 20 for the third.

FALSE. Corbett had good reflexes, and was very hard to catch to the head. In addition, he had blocking and parrying ability, which can be seen in his sparring session. Sometimes I think you just haven't seen the films enough to make blanket statements.

Hard to tell about the hands. Agree on the feet. In terms of punch out put, Corbett is the better.

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More durable? BS. Corbett went many rounds with Choynski got hit and beat him. When Choynski meet Johnson, who at the time had 20+ fights, Joe CHoy put Johnson out early with one punch!

This went 60+ rounds. Jackson was in fine shape, and the minor ankle injury Jackson had 2 weeks ago was not mentioned as a issue in ANY fight report I read. Jackson could hit better than Johnson. So says George Siler who saw them both. Siler also felt Jackson was the better by long odds! So how is Johnson going to stop Corbett in 45 rounds when he 1 ) doesn't hit as hard, 2 ) wasn't very active, 3 ) perfered to play it safe, and 4 did his best work in the clinches?

Johnson never went past 25 rounds, and the time he did, he lost in the 26th.

So if we are talking stamina here, Corbett, who also took hard body punches from Jefffires going 23 rounds ( Jeffries clearly hit harder than Johnson ) has the more proven edge.

Fitz hit much harder than Johnson and was game. Fitz did not opt out of action as Johnson sometime did. See the Hart fight.

Johnson was a safety first fighter, MCvey. He turned aggressive when he was in there with a guy with less skill, vs a tired guy, or vs a much smaller man.

You got that one right, and since I have been a busy man I'll stop here.

 

Average ? Better than Finnegan, Kennedy and Munroe then.:good

Its hilarious you asking for primary sources ,a man who has never produced one despite many calls to do so in backing up his unsupported claims.
Johnson said he weighed 154lbs when he fought Klondike in their intial bout,he dropped the bigger man in the second and did well until tiring because he was not in shape.
I'm amazed you didnt repeat your usual accusation that Johnson quit in this fight perhaps its beginning to filter through that he did not?

Where did I say Corbett did not have good reflexes ? Heres my original post take your time ,read slowly, forming the words with your lips.

"Corbett was an elusive, fleet footed clever boxer ,who depended on his legs and reflexes to win fights ."

I said he was more mobile and depended on his foot work to avoid punches. Whereas Johnson relied on his blocking and parrying ability. Do you want me to produce about a couple of 100 testimonies backing that up?
You've made a judgement of Corbett's blocking and parrying abilities based on how many grainy seconds of a fight that he lost?
A ,"blanket statement ",made on the basis of how many fleeting seconds of grainy, jumpy film? Because that's all there is of Corbett in an actual fight.

Which segment of the Fitzsimmons fight shows Corbett doing this?

Again which segment of the Fitzsimmons fight allows you to state Corbett's punch output was greater than Johnson's

Choynski was 20 years old when he fought Corbett and an absolute novice. Corbett was the Heavyweight Champion of his AC. Choynski had 65 fights under his belt when he met [not meet] Johnson.
Corbett was kod by ONE PUNCH from a man scaling 157lbs .He had 21 fights and was stopped 3 times until he retired at 37..

Johnson had nearly 100 fighting on into his 50's ,he was stopped just 6 times and kod only 3 times.And never in his prime. He went from Febuary 1901 until April 1915 without being kod.

His durability shits all over Corbett's

Since Choynski only scaled about 170 at his best, its likely he was a small middleweight at best when Corbett beat him.

Jackson went into the Corbett fight with a swollen ankle, the result of a sprain.
Siler said Jackson was the harder hitter but that there was not anything between him and Johnson for ability. Half of the Corbett/ Jackson fight was a sleep walk with some rounds no punches being thrown let alone landing.
Corbett went 23rds against Jeffries before being kod.He was 33.

He went 27 rds with 20 years old novice Choynski when he was 23.
He was 25 when he waltzed through 61rds to a no dec with Jackson. Johnson went 20rds 12times before he became champion!

He went 20rds with Moran when he was a fat 35.


Johnson went 26rds with a giant when he was 37 years old and he was in front after 20rds.
As an old man of 48 he went 15rds to beat Pat Lester who was 6'.3.5 and 220lbs. He went 1o rds with 212lbs Brad Simmons when he was 53.
Simmons had stopped Langford in 1 rd a month earlier.

Corbett never beat a prime man his own size
Johnson was fighting younger bigger men when he himself was an old man.
Johnson stamina is far more proven than Corbett's.

Corbett didn't take hard body shots from Fitz, he was derailed with one punch.
The discrepancy between Jeffries power and Johnson is negligible imo. Once again you assert Johnson was not game ?This only makes your post all the more ridiculous.
But it's raining and I'm in the study with nothing to do today but prepare dinner later, so I've indulged myself correcting your phobic bull ****.

I say Johnson improved on Corbett's skills, and it would be strange if he did not because with nearly a 100 fights under his belt he had around 90 more bouts .
I say Johnson hit harder than Corbett.
I say Johnson was bigger, and stronger than Corbett.
I say Johnson was more durable than Corbett.
These things being so I have no hesitation in picking Johnson to win .

 

Let's just hope for Jim's sake that he doesn't offer Jack any of the insights he did from ringside in Reno...

 

Surely this bout is some form of punishment? Perhaps the centrepiece of hell, replayed for all eternity.

In all seriousness it might actually be an intriguing one with Corbett's roaming footwork forcing Johnson into a more aggressive type of fight. When they do fall into a clinch it is Johnson who holds all the trump cards which may prove decisive in a 45 rounder.

If only we had Corbett's epic stand against P. Jackson; well, the first twenty rounds shall we say.

Either way this one is tough to call. I'd still favour Johnson, but he's given lots of trouble. Just how much trouble is the big question.