the jones jr debate.

I think we can safely assume that Jones did not want Tarver to win that fight.

So?

Lets take a look at Jones's career around that time?

He makes a Voluntary fight against a Otis grant
He then makes a Mandatory fight again Frazier
A couple of things should be pointed out here:

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After that he makes a Voluntary fight again R.Johnson. He then makes another Voluntary fight against Telesco and then has Tarver and Nunn pushed into elimination bouts. After that he then goes on to make a Mandatory fight again Hall.

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If he was really under pressure from the sanctioning bodies then he should of had Frazier and Hall pushed into bouts, not Nunn and Tarver.

Your bending the facts here

He had no choice. The champion is obligated to fight the winner of a elimination bout. It wasn't some condition he put in to convince the IBF

 

Jones knew Nunn would probably beat him. Liles wasn't close to the level of class Nunn could get to if motivated.

 

This is hardly proof that Jones was roiding for Ruiz.. Mackie Shilstone is damn good at what he does.

 

Roy is a Glass Jawed fighter. He has no Chin. None. He also had no Plan B in a fight and folded in the face of adversity.

If he fights again he is getting KOed. He knows this.

 

Is that true about Jones refusing to fight Rocky because he didn't show up for a press conference? That's rich coming from him. He made a habit of not showing for press conferences or arriving fashionably late during the height of his pomp. He'd leave everyone sitting around twiddling their thumbs for hours, when he could be bothered to show that is. His arrogance and egomaniacal attitude was one of the main reasons he was disliked by so many members of the media and fight fraternity back then.

 

So good that he can make Jones put on muscle at a higher rate than is naturally possible?:huh

 

Yeah, its true. He really should of got stripped of his belt for refusing to fight Roch as well.

 

Nunn should of won that fight as well

 

general zod,

I enjoy debating against you, because it's a good challenge.

But again, it appears that you're looking for an argument.

According to Mackie, Roy started camp already weighing 192 pounds.

"Roy came to me at 192 pounds with 8.7 percent body fat. All we did was change the composition; bring his body fat down to six percent."

According to Thomas Hauser, a guy who we both have a lot of respect for, Roy weighed 196 pounds in the dressing room before the fight.

'Jones agreed to get on the scale. It registered 199. Subtract three pounds for clothes, and Jones weighed 196. That's more than Dempsey or Marciano ever weighed in the ring and a pound less than Joe Louis weighed when he captured the heavyweight crown.'


http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CDYQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.secondsout.com%2Fcolumns%2Fthomas-hauser%2Fjones-ruiz-and-the-roy-jones-legacy1&ei=s_RcU9n9PMW6OMbsgaAG&usg=AFQjCNFcRg1vbaTr_qyRPR73SZfNgyKAQg&sig2=YwZvuFTAAmiIfD1Nh5KVzw

What are you talking about? Originally, when I was talking to Madmanc, I never mentioned anything with regards to the effects of losing weight. All I said, was that it was a fact that Roy burnt muscle to go from 196 down to 175. It's you who then started wanting a medical source regarding effects. But the only person that mentioned the effects, was you.

We don't need scientific evidence. It's a fact that every fighter reacts different to different circumstances, hence why Thomas Hearns moved up and down with no issues, yet Roy and Chad Dawson didn't.

That's right, but again, I was highlighting the fact that every fighter reacts different to different circumstances. I used Chad Dawson as an example to state that other fighters have found it hard to drop weight.

What you've typed above is irrelevant. We know that Roy's circumstances weren't the same as Chad's.

But it's you who originally said that other fighters have moved down with no issues.

Again, I gave you Chad's difficulties as an example of someone other than Roy, who also found it difficult.

Read the interview below, with Chris Byrd from last year.


http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rc...LpXxoirvQBXMLKgug&sig2=8UmF-9NrRBb8smPUJOxHrA


Also, Roy lost his weight over a much shorter period.

Roy kept his physique after the Ruiz fight, in the hope of getting a big money fight at HW. We know that he contemplated fighting Corrie Sanders in the summer of 2003, but he turned it down, because he didn't feel it was for enough money. Also, I've recently read that Roy was due to fight Evander Holyfield in November of 2003, until Murad and Don King got greedy and scuppered the deal. Jim Thomas, who was Evander's attorney at the time, revealed in his book - 'The Holyfield Way' that a fight was almost made, but they couldn't agree on the upside of the PPV split. At which point, Evander, who was very angry, ended up taking less money to fight James Toney instead, out of principle.

People assume that Roy had 8 months to shed the weight (March -Nov) but that wasn't the case.

When a big money fight at HW failed to materialize, that weight had to come off fast.

 

Everything you've wrote above, is completely irrelevant to what I wrote, and it proves to me that you're just trying to argue for the sake of it.

My original point, was that if Roy could beat Tarver in 2003, then there's nothing to suggest that a younger version of Roy couldn't also have beaten him, had they fought earlier.

Tarver was much fresher when they fought, with only 20 odd fights on his resume, and after 9 rounds, Roy was running on fumes. Yet he still beat him.

With regards to the rematch, yes, Roy was in much better shape, both physically and mentally. You can see that on the video - Heart of a Champion, when he was back working with Mackie again. There was no excuses in that fight, Tarver just caught him with a great shot.

But again, If Roy could beat him at almost 35, then there's nothing to suggest that he couldn't have beaten him had they fought earlier.

 

This is very poor from you.

I'm putting forward a logical argument and asking the question 'Did Roy duck Micheal Nunn out of a fear of losing to him?'

That's the question that I have asked.

Now it's crystal clear to me, as a fan of Roy's, that if he was scared of losing to an old Michael Nunn, who couldn't beat Roch who you've described as a Woods level fighter, then he would never have gone to HW 6 years later, and fought bigger challenges in Calzaghe and Tarver etc.

It makes NO SENSE!

All of the above 'he was low on options and had no choice' is completely laughable.

He could have fought far less dangerous fights and made money.

Roy always had options.

You always like to make out that Tarver was avoided. But after the Woods fight, Roy said he'd fight either Tarver or Ruiz next. He opted for Ruiz, but fought Tarver afterwards. But he didn't have to take that Tarver fight in Nov, 2003. He could have had some time off, or fought at CW etc. But surely a fight with Tarver was a bigger challenge in 2003, than what Nunn would have been in 97, when you factor in the weight loss etc?

Do you not give Roy credit for beating Tarver?

You say HBO washed his hands of him, but they even showed the rematch with Hopkins.

Roy thought he had a genuine chance of beating Joe back in 2008. You know how big Roy's ego is. He would never have signed for a fight that he thought he couldn't win, live on HBO, just because he needed the money.

No, Roy wouldn't have gone to Russia in his prime and fought for a low amount, but then why would have?

But he didn't fight Lebedev just for a payday. He fought him, because at the time it was his last chance to try and secure a CW title before he retired. He was on a quest back then to try get a version of the title. A victory over Lebedev would have led to a title shot at some point.

All you've done here, is question my logic and then made poor excuses.

You've just gone into - full blown, argumentative mode.

A guy who feared a past his best Nunn at 28, would not have fought Dennis Lebedev at CW, overweight at 42, after 13 months of inactivity, due to a bad knee.

It's completely illogical.

It would be like saying that Roy feared Collins at 27, even though he went to HW at 34.

 

Jones was awesome, but a lot of the guys he fought were pre-prime or past prime... maybe they would have given him a tough fight had they been at their best ever? or maybe not?

Wish he would have fought-

Michalczewski
Nunn
Benn
Eubank
McClellan
Julian Jackson, yes, Julian Jackson)

Thomas Hearns, it was talked about but by that time Hearns was well past prime. Had it happened a few years before it was actually talked about, it might have been interesting but Hearns would have been a big underdog.

Hill, a few years earlier

McCallum, a few years earlier

Toney II, and III at HW

Hopkins, somewhere between the two fights they did have

Thomas Tate II at SMW, Tate was kicking azz at SMW after his loss to Jones and drug rehab

 

He fought guys who were decent and would get better after he fought them like Harding, Harmon, Gonzalez, and Woods.... not that it would have mattered much. Harding did fight well though.

 

You're not telling me anything that I don't already know.

We know that the circumstances were different between Roy's average mando's and Michael Nunn.

We know that guys like Frazier etc were happy to make those low amounts.

We know that Goossen had the power to win the purse bids etc.

Boxing's a business.

We know that Roy didn't want Nunn to make significantly more than Frazier etc, while he got around $1.8m.

We know that Roy DID NOT WANT TO FIGHT Michael Nunn.

If you go back through my history, I've said on many occasions, that I feel that Roy should have fought him.

But I'm sorry, in my honest opinion, Roy not wanting to fight him back then, does not tell me that Roy was scared of him.

Why fight Michael Nunn for $1.8m, when you can fight guys like Frazier for more, and guys like Hill, for significantly more?

He fought Hill for $3m. He also inquired about a Holyfield fight, and a fight with Douglas was lined up for around $6m.

Evander in 97 and in 99, said that he wasn't interested.

Now if you don't believe that Roy was serious about fighting Evander, that's up to you.

But I think he'd have taken it, if the money had been right, and if his father hadn't intervened.

That's my honest opinion. I truly believe that.

So again, I have to ask, why would a guy who feared Nunn, have been willing to fight Evander?

Was fighting Toney in 94, not a bigger challenge than fighting Nunn in 97?

 

As for the Nunn question. I think it came down to Nunn being a big risk for little reward. Nunn was a damn good fighter even at that point but nobody other than hardcore fans even knew he was still around. I think Jones would have won, but it wasn't going to be easy... and for what? People would have said, you beat a has been who was out of shape.