Groves v Froch

Apologies for length of thread...something about boxing that gets us all carried away...far far too much. Not many will read...but hopefully a few can make it through...

I ll hold my hands up wasnt overly vocal about it...but definetely wrote froch off. As far as to think that groves might actually seriously hurt him tonight. Honestly thought groves...if he came out to fight the same way as the first fight would put carl away within 6.

Couldn't have been more wrong in the end.

We got a 100% better froch tonight...one of the better performances i ve seen from him.

He deserves all the plaudits

This may sound like excuses. Because i m a groves fan.

But It was a 100% worse groves performance.

I had it quite close groves hitting with the harder shot...but froch edging the fight on points maybe one or two points up. And the writting for me was on the wall...the fight was going froch's way...he would have won it without the stoppage in the end imo

Great stoppage from ref...could have gave the count but george was finished...think his mind was still there but the legs were gone....he would have been all over the place when he got to his feet i think the ref held him to prevent that from happening.

Thats about the least explosive i ve ever seen george.

Even the gameplan was hard to fathom...it looked like he fought froch's fight, happily...i honestly dont know why he didn't try to take the centre of the ring from the start like the first fight...he looked like he didn't want it and would happily box on the back foot...as well as happily exchange with carl in close which was his downfall in the first fight. To me it didn't look like with froch's improvements that he gave george no choice, it's just that groves wanted to do it. I thought they were conserving energy on the back foot and were holding it in the tank for later...but it didn't seem to be the case. His right hand was used sparingly which is surprising considering how much success he had with it in the first fight.

I genuinely thought he looked like he never hydrated enough over night...he still looked a little bit dry. i also would be questioning his strength and conditioning coach...because that wasn't the usual explosiveness from george.

^^^ these are excuses at the end of the day.

Froch won...and won well. I hope he retires after tonight easy to go on for one more fight that i think he definetely has got in him and more. He'd match anyone at the weight possibly with the exception of ward. But again i mentioned it the other day with the blinking...it might just be a tick...but i noticed tonight he was doing it excessively in the corner between rounds. Thats not a great sign for the future. He's really done it all...no need to go over old ground. A much better career than i ever thought he would have...watched quite a bit of him from early on in his career and wrote him off at the elite level...because of being far far too easy to hit.

For george...i think froch was spot on and i didn't agree with it when i read it during the week...saying that he's too fragile at world level to stay there. I think he's right in hindsight...that punch would have put most over...but it's every time george takes a good shot you think is he going to go? He has nearly everything else...not tonight...but what i ve seen. Has the power...speed...accuracy...movement, they are world class. But if your ability to take a shot at world level is questionable...it wont end well for you. I honestly think he shouldn't stay in boxing for the long haul. Pick and choose opponents and get out relatively young.

Also his biggest problem which should be his biggest strength is his over-confidence. I like paddy, i think he's a great addition to any boxing team...but he's not a number one. Groves wants to organise it all himself by the looks of things. I dont think the occasion got too much for him tonight one bit...i think he revels in it all.

But his interview after the fight was just as deluded from what we've heard from froch in the past...i thought froch was class tonight in his interview...he pushed it a bit in the end lol, any longer and it would have been back to the international superstar days. But he deserves it after tonight to be fair. What worried me with george is he put it down to just got caught...it was just unlucky. It wasn't froch and his team went away and improved...on almost everything whereas george seemed to have went backwards. Froch was imo about to put it on george...looking at the fight....the exchanging in close...carl taking the centre of the ring from the start...froch hunting george more than george was hunting carl unlike the first fight...froch dictated how the fight went a lot of people will say froch made that happen...but watching it i thought george happily conceded it. I think groves's mind games are good he bested froch regardless of how the froch fans seen it...although froch definetely bested him in the end and made george look a bit silly in the process. But the more i look at it the more i think what george says and does isn't really mind games at all he totally believes what he's saying. for example i can beat carl anyway i want. or i will finish froch with a left hook. Which was bizarre considering it was the straight shots that gave him every bit of success that he had...i thought that was said as 100% mind games when he said it, but i think he genuinely believed he could beat carl anyway he wanted...and it lead to his downfall. Not just that if they fought again and george came in the way he did in the first fight i still think tonights froch would have beat him. George had froch scared to throw in that first fight...and that was the big difference...i think george hit him with a beuty of a left jab tonight...and froch reverted back to be hesitant...but then george failed to let that right hand go and went on the back foot again...inviting froch on. I m amazed at how much they could get the first fight spot on and the second so wrong. Froch looked like he was going to be hard to beat regardless tonight...it probably wouldn't have been enough either way...but i m just surprised that in my opinion froch didn't really how to force his fight on george....george really didn't mind it going the way it was going. He wasn't bothered about dictating the fight like the first time.

Sorry about length of post cant remember being so hyped up for a fight since hatton mayweather. Eddie's been brilliant for boxing imo...he's going to bring boxing back to the mainstream i just wish he plays more fairly in future....no need for the very small ring...or the delay in the weigh in etc etc etc...the ricky burns beltram fight etc, the scorecards...the absolute favouritsm from the matchroom team for their fighters....the list does go on. If he can cut these things out...i ll happily pay my money for these type of fights. In this day and age we should have a 100% even playing field. The home fighter may get a little bit of favouritism...eg wins a close fight, or make the ring maybe a little smaller than standard if it suits your man...but not ****ing that small. Or the weight in delay maybe an hour but not four from the original time if it suits your fighter better. I want it all stopped completely but human nature will always bring it in to play...i dont like the extent he goes with it tho...i hope it eventually gets cuts out alltogether.

Well done carl froch...thouroughly deserved tonight!

Also Lee Froch...the big plonker.

Also george groves...came up short tonight...but still be a big supporter in the future, hope he can go on to even bigger things...done himself proud overall and then seemed to mess it all up in the end.

 

Good points gullet...i agree about the chin...it's not that bad. It's a bit like khan's, the actual chins okay but there is a real vulneribility about both of them...with the exception that george can usually hold a fighter off for much longer with the power he has.

It's more a problem of when you hit him he seems to fall apart a bit. Becomes dis-organised. Still tries to trade. And thats where the problems begin.

Yeah think it was part of the game-plan in hinsight the reason being exactly what you've said...but it's ended up back-firing big time. For me the blue-print to beating carl was laid out by george himself 6 months ago...they've tried to be too smart about it...and it's played into froch's hands. If george came out with the exact same game-plan as the first fight i think we would have seen a much different fight last night even with carl's big improvements. George showed the way to stopping carl in his tracks is dis-courage him from throwing. Just dont think george really hurt him enough to do that at any stage last night because he kept the right hand at bay...he threw it just not with quite the same venom Because as you've said part of the game-plan. The only time i noticed that he discouraged carl was after hitting him with the left jab that wobbled froch, he became hesitant to throw again as the first fight. But george ended up staying with the game plan instead of keeping froch hesitant which i believe he could have done.

Maybe it was more the game plan rather than the strength and conditioning...i think he was more measured and as a result wasn't throwing the right hand as much or with too much venom. Still think george looked at bit thin round the face...thought that when as soon as i seen him in the ring walk.

I think if george went out there with the hearns v hagler mentality he briefly touched on...he would have got froch out of there. It would have been a risky strategy...but so too was last nights. I think froch got extremely lucky with the first fight stoppage he didn't have much left himself in the tank to really hurt george, he had him hurt allright, but if george sees that through which i think he would of, froch would have late fluries but because of the barrage george had giving him...carl's attacks were becoming desperate.

Yeah ring size was a scandal...weather george stupidly agreed to it or not it should never have been an option...even if it was approved by the board...lets get a fair size ring with a normal canvas...hearn needs to address the underhand tactics, it ruins the sport for me.

Froch was brilliant last night overall...and rob mckracken deserves a lot of credit too...that punch had been re-hearsed by the looks of it. They came in with an absolute spot on game-plan. Nine out of 10 people would probably say george's gameplan was a good one too...it's easy in hindsight to say...it was the wrong game-plan. But too me even watching it i thought it was the wrong game-plan from the start...he should have went in throwing hurtful straight shots. I think the reason he missed with them last night was not because carl was dodging them better but because he wasn't throwing it with the same venom too keep the energy in the tank...as you've said. If he threw it with the same abandon the first fight i think he catches carl again and again and then forces him to become hesitant and rendering him far less dangerous.


I think froch would have been put down with the shot that he done groves with...due to the fact they were both trying to exchange at the time...but the difference being froch would have got up from it...and fought on. As soon as george took it...it was night night. The ref should have counted in a fight of that magnitude because george almost makes it to his feet in time...but george was ****ed even if it was the end of the round and he had the minute break or whatever. His legs were gone. Again this might sound like bias towards a fighter but if george had put froch over with that same punch...i would have gave the count. He might not have made it...but i genuinely believes that he does...and might well have recovered enough to get on with the fight.

Hey jed...you may be right. it was a different froch last night...he did fight superbly. But i think george had the success in the first fight because he hurt him and hurt him early. Froch's jab was so bad on the night of the first fight not because his jab is so bad but even when carl was throwing it he was getting hit with big hurtful right hands. He became unsure of throwing it...i honestly believe if george would have went there and really threw hurtful punches from the outset we would have seen that hesitant jab of carl's again. In the end carl won the battle all ways up, the game-plan, the execution and even ended up coming across better in the end at the interviews.

Good game-plan from mckracken was interesting watching the eubanks spar...he wanted froch pushing forward regardless of being backed up if that makes sense...just keep coming forward it was a good game plan seeing as george hunted him down and backed him up for most of the first fight.

It's a fight i would pay to see a 3rd time...but there isn't much point. The first fight i wouldn't even hold against george as a genuine loss...the second definetely was...as conclusive as you would ever get or need. And to be honest what i ve said with the above strategy, if george fought again against carl it's still a 50/50 fight at the very best for george. It was about even on points for me last night...i think i said froch up by a point...the more i think of it i actually had george winning by the point, harder, cleaner more shots. But he wasn't winning the fight if that makes sense...it was going exactly how froch and mckracken had planned.

 

Hey gullet...i maybe didn't explain my point about the ref count well...i thought the fight was over as soon as that punch landed...it was actually good experience from the ref to wave it off...it was over. But he should still be giving the count. If groves had put froch down with the same punch i reckon he gets back up...but it becomes a bit too dangerous for my liking. But not many would have gotten back up from it. He's rushed in a bit with stopping the count...but it was 100% the right call.

I like paddy i think he should definetely be involved with groves in the future...but i d like to see him as the boss completely. Weather it's in his nature...i m not so sure. I think the biggest problem is...not that he's a yes man...it's just that he's been brought in by george to be a yes man. And it's not in his nature to take control...the way george needs...even though george doesn't believe it's neccesarry...maybe he will after last night.

 

^^^^ spot on ryan. Was it just me it probably was...that thought george wasn't as powerful, accurate, quick last night as he was the first fight. I m aware their was a totally different game plan in place...but regardless of that. And froch fought a much better fight...but taking froch out of the equation...was george just not as good as he was. Personally when i seen him come out last night one of the first things i said was he looks a bit dry at the weight especially around the face...i didn't think he hydrated enough or they messed up a bit with the camp.

The first full camp with the new strength and conditioner coach...and somehow came in looking not nearly as sharp as he had...maybe it was just down to carl it was to an extent plus the game-plan...but i really dont think it was all down to that.

None of it takes away from froch's win and performance...they are excuses...it's just my opinion on it.

I also thought carl looked like he had maybe over-trained for it when he came out...but he looked tip top when the fight started last night. I just dont think that was the same george groves from the first fight. Just wasn't nearly as sharp...even taking froch's improvements on board.

 

Yeah i totally agree with that cassiusbrit...froch was there for the taking last night. but only if groves could go away and improve from his first fight performance...what i seen last night was froch went away and came back a much better fighter much more prepared probably than i ve seen him.

The jab was much better...the gameplan...the dangerous right hand to discourage george trading as much. But a lot maybe wont agree but i get that george had a game plan...as you said similar to how he boxed degale but to me george had regressed quite a bit from the first fight. Not even in terms of technique etc but more his strength, speed, explosiveness, accuracy and even his stamina didn't look as good as it did. It would be easy to say froch negated groves in their last night and to a degree there's some truth to that. But i think some of that was down to a george not as good as the first fight...taking the game-plan, technique etc out of the equation. Just didn't look nearly explosive as he did and always has.

Disappointing as a groves fan because i genuinely believe if george had turned up right last night he would have took froch out although with froch's improvements...it would have still been a big ask..but do-able for him. Credit to froch, they've deserved the win in the end. He's took that fight seriously and in hindsight got everything right. I dont even think george's team got that much wrong...if groves would have knocked carl out we'd be sitting here saying groves and his team played a blinder throughout. But the one massive difference and the thing that let them down last night more than anything else was not even the game-plan...or the mind games leading up to the fight but how george came into the ring...he looked under-prepared for it. And the problem they have is no one in the camp, not george anyway can admit or even believes there was a problem with it...he's just putting it down to a lucky punch and saying he was totally controlling the fight...which he wasn't. If i was george i would be looking at the new strength and conditioning coach. If i was the strength and conditioning coach i would be asking questions of myself after how he came in the first fight compared to the second.

 

^^^At the end of the day...spot on

 

I would have put my life savings on george groves taking froch out of there last night beforehand and by stoppage as well. Which is a pretty bold prediction considering froch's toughness and durability. I thought groves had him beat all ways up. But credit where credit's due...froch came in more focused that i ve ever seen him...even more so than bute who to me swallowed in the atmosphere as much as froch put it on him.

mckracken too deserves just as much credit as froch...the game plan was absolutely spot on. It wasn't that george's plan was even that bad...dont really blame them for going in like they did...i wouldn't have...i would have went in exact same way as the first fight...but the common sense approach favoured what they went with in the end.

I ve never liked froch's style the same way i didn't like calzaghe's style before him but neither can be critisized for getting the job done...and in hindsight both were better than i ever gave them credit for. Very very hard to beat.

Still think george's biggest let down was the s & c part of it more so than anything else. Also think someone on the other thread hit the nail on the head george has durability issues...and i fear they wont ever be resolved. It's about the only thing that will let him down in the end. He probably will win a world title but as we've seen even moderately talented guys can win one nowadays. Always been a fan of groves as a fighter and none more so than after the first fight...thought he was on the way to superstardom...but cant see it now...not to say he'll not still be in big big fights. Obviously the durability issues are not going by the knockout punch...would have taking most out.