Is there no film whatsoever of Harry Greb in an actual fight?

If my memory serves, there was an old boxing video called Pound for Pound narrated by Jim Rosenthal, & in it there was a very brief clip shown that was supposed to be one of the Greb v Tunney duels. Whether it really was or not I don't know but I've just remembered it.

 

..

 

Very interesting. While I doubt something like this would go under the radar, this is what I am looking for, getting the word out. Thanks for the information. The boxing community is small compared to that of Old Hollywood historians so there is a chance something might have been overlooked.

 

Asinine post.

So you think, essentially, that Greb's greatness depends on how he looks? Never mind that he ran the gamut of at least two weight divisions when both were extremely deep and came out head and shoulders above everyone... Arguments like this make it easy to see why pisspots like Roy Jones and Floyd Mayweather can duck challenges and fight hobos and people still want to rank them highly. "He looks incredible, superhuman" Nevermind that my granny would look good fighting some of their competition. You can argue about how a fighter fights, or looks, that has no baring on his accomplishments. If Greb looks like **** beating someone like Mickey Walker, Loughran, Gibbons, or Tunney (all of whom are still regarded as some of the greatest fighters in history whether you agree or not) then who give a **** as long as he legitimately won. Andre Ward doesnt look particularly special but nobody has come close to beating him yet. Do you think when Gene Tunney collapsed on his way back to his dressing room after Greb beat the tar out of him that he thought "well he beat my ass but he sure didnt look good doing it." Or Mickey Walker when he cried in his towel after giving everything he had to an old blind Greb and still coming up far short of the mark? I doubt it.

 

I largely agree with this. I definitely consider how a fighter 'looks' when considering his greatness or overall merit, but I put a lot more stock in what he actually does, by way of accomplishment.

However, the highlighted part of your post is a bit over the top. Fighting bums (and, of course, beating them) does not detract from a fighter's resume so long as they have a decent number of good, very good, and great wins as well.

The greatest (IMO) HW ever had a fair few 'bums' on his cv, but he also had Liston, Frazier and Foreman on there too, as well as a raft of other very good wins.

Mayweather has perhaps had some less than stellar opponents early, but he has beaten a long list of the best in the game at various weights, and in his later years, fought only worthy opponents, his duck of Pac notwithstanding.

And Roy has fought some 'bouncer' level opponents but he dismantled Toney, decisively beat Bernard and beat a decent HW for a sliver of the championship.
Not too bad for a guy who boxed professionally at 154.

Neither of these guys could reasonably be termed pisspots, as both are ATGs no matter how stringently you define the term.

Showing that Greb was the best ever ( or somewhere no worse than top five) does not require taking a pish on two modern greats, even if they don't measure up fully to Greb.

 

Did Mayweather ever beat the best fighter any weight he ever fought at? He beat a bunch of recognizeable names but most of them were not at their best when they fought him and he clearly ducked several fighters, not just Pacqiaou. The big win that got him his early marquee billing was his bout with Corrales. Thats the closest Mayweather ever came to fighting the best in his division but to this day theyve never publicly revealed that Corrales was dead at the weight (And actually didnt even make it officially) but was so desperate for that paycheck because he was headed to jail that he paid to keep the fight on even though he couldnt even stand under his own power. That fight looked great for Floyd when you dont know any of the actual context. Roberto Garcia would have looked unbeatable fighting THAT Corrales as well. You can say its not Floyd's fault and its true that he doesnt bear all of the blame but he knew going in a win was a forgone conclusion. Jones is a different matter. Can you imagine if Greb had basically quit fighting contenders in 1917? Thats basically what Jones did. He ducked a ton of fighters after Toney, a win I give him credit for even though Toney was in a similar situation to Corralles. I get so sick of hearing about Hopkins, nobody even knew who the **** Hopkins was when Jones beat him and it would be years before he made a name for himself. That win was average at best at the time and hey, guess what, Jones didnt look great beating Hopkins, a live body. **** Ruiz. Can you imagine if Ruiz fought in the 1920s and that was Greb's ONE fight at HW? People wouldnt even care but Jones roids up to his eyeballs and beats the weakest HW titlist in years and somehow we are supposed to pretend hes so good? Im not tearing Jones and Mayweather apart to build Greb up. I dont need to. Greb's resume shits all over both of those guys' and its because he actively sought the most difficult fights his entire career. He was a real fighter in every sense of the word. Jones and Mayweather arent fighters, they are entertainers who choose the opponents that they can entertain their particular brand of fans (who I submit are not sportsmen or even true boxing fans) against. Beyond the fact that they wear boxing gloves while entertaining the comparisons to Greb and other greats of the past end there.

 

To JOE JENNETTE

1922 article by Norman E. Brown, syndicated sports writer (for Central Press, I believe)

There's a small group of fighters in the ring game today that ought to be organized into some kind of a club. Said club might be called "The Tamers of Champs."
The gents in mind are men like Memphis Pal Moore, Johnny Dundee, Harry Greb and Benny Valger. They have never been able to land a real championship of their own, but they have made the champions in their classes and classes above them look foolish in the ring.
Pal Moore is the most striking example. He is feared by every bantamweight in the game today. He is not on the calling list of the various champs as they come and go. Few of the youngsters like to meet him.
Moore, Valger, Dundee, Greb and one or two others of their general type, have a puzzling style which puts any plain but ordinarily dangerous boxer at a great disadvantage. Consequently, especially in no-decision bouts, these freak fighters can make better opponents, especially champs, look like dubs while not harming them.
Moore is the most striking example. First of all, he swings his arms windmill fashion and slaps with the open glove. The average opponent is made to feel that four or five arms and twice as many gloves are coming his way.
In addition, Moore has a grass-hopper jump, which he uses to confuse an opponent if said enemy tries to bore in.
The champion, whoever he may be, is wisely cautious of walking into these wild swings, and finds himself unable to locate the elusive Moore to do any damage.
Harry Greb showed what a puzzling style he has when he made Tommy Gibbons, a fast and clever man, heavier than himself, look foolish in their recent battle. Greb dances in and out, tapping with lightning-like thrusts, but never giving his opponent a chance to retaliate. A champion, or any other man, who wants to carry the fight to Greb and possibly land a k. o. finds himself out of luck.
Johnny Dundee has a jumping style something on the order of Moore, except that he leaps in such a way that he can deliver a fairly stiff jolt as he goes up. He also has a rugged frame and a good defense, which make it hard for a champion to show up well against him. Ask Johnny Kilbane and one or two other kings.
Benny Valger, New York boy who called himself the "French flash" when he first broke into the limelight, never came dangerously near a title, but in no-decision bouts he appeared to be a wonderful fighter. He could not come through when a decision would have counted, however.
These men have profited almost as much by their freak style as they would have by winning a title. Champions and leading contenders make the mistake of accepting matches with them, and the brilliant showing of the "freaks" in such bouts make them big drawing cards.

 

Frank G. Menke and Joe Wiliams found similarities in Greb, Dundee and Moore as well. John J. Romano (writing as Fair Play) referred to Greb as big Johnny Dundee in fighting methods.

 

Ive seen Greb compared to Dundee numerous times. More often than anyone else. Its bizarre to me that that one writer said Dundee wasnt clever. Dundee was a guy who could really do it all except punch.

 

I think Klompton makes a very valid point regarding the whole what did Greb look like issue. A look at Grebs record tells you all you need to know about how effective he was. What he looked like doing it is largely immaterial apart from a what kind of style you prefer to watch perspective.

This is probably why we end up with so many " Was Jones the best ever" threads, because he looked spectacular beating policeman & cab drivers, but who wouldn't?!

 

..

 

I posted this on the other Greb thread.

As Klompton pointed out on the other thread, Greb could have defeated those top guys because he was just a very awkward person to fight, not because he was so incredibly great that no one could match him.

However, if Harry Greb fights like Ricardo Mayorga (who Klompton brought up in that thread), we aren't going to be seeing him at the top of anyone's lists for anything. That's all I'm saying.

People are going to want him to look a lot better than that because they've built him up so much in their minds.

How he looks fighting in the ring against other fighters matters A LOT.

Before films of old-timers were widely available, there were epic stories about what great fighting machines they were. When we saw them, they weren't. (Or at least they weren't how we imagined them to be based on the reports.)

Since there's no film of Greb fighting someone, people can still imagine him to be something he likely wasn't. Based on the guys who beat him that we have seen, I'm leaning toward the real possibility he looks about the same as they do. And nobody has them at the tops of lists anymore.

They don't, because "we've seen them" and now we know they aren't the best ever.

If there was no film of Gene Tunney, and all we knew was his record and what we read about how he owned Jack Dempsey when they fought, he'd probably be considered the best heavyweight who ever lived.

But we saw him fight. We saw how bad Dempsey looked. Tunney was fine. Very talented. But, when we can watch him and compare him to heavyweights who came after, he isn't at the top of heavyweight lists anymore.

 

Actually, his incredible speed and INSANE stamina were considered to be his greatest assets(the guy was absolutely tireless according to every report I've read over the course of his career).

Couple that with his iron chin and he could fight like Mayorga or anyone else and still buzzsaw through the middleweight and light-heavyweight rankings. He would be like Henry Armstrong on meth.

 

..

 

Peoples' expectations of some stylistic master are just juvenile.

Results speak to excellence, not fancy moves on film. His list of pelts is second to none.