I usually stay away from blogs for just for this reason, there are too many narcissistic, self-important types out there, who let ego get in the way of common sense, fairness and truth. I was alerted to the diatribe of my Choynski book. It's funny - most people, if they have a criticism, say I used TOO MANY sources! Just as Adam Pollack did, I utilized multiple sources, to give a diversity of perspectives. All of my Colorado sources, for instance, I copied directly from the Denver Public Library's microfilm. Many of the Australian papers' articles, I was mailed by two of my Aussie pals. A friend of mine in London, UK mailed me multpile articles from British papers, and so on. When an author and historian spends six years researching and writing a comprehensive biography of a long-dead boxer, has 50-some pages of endnotes, and is STILL criticized for not doing diligent research, I can only shake my head and call them ridiculous. Covering approx. 80 of Joe's fights, in addition to some of those of his contemporaries, I utilized local sources when I could obtain them. Until both of you prove that you can match or exceed this, you need to acquire some sense. My research has been far more exhaustive than 99% of all historians out there! THAT is the truth!
If you read what I wrote, I said "so many boxing writers from USA" and then "Many of these writers I have in mind are members of IBRO", so it wasn't directed at you in particular, but at the common approach of writing boxing history books recently. We have the books by Adam Pollack and Steve Compton, and then there's the rest, basically. They are better now than most books that were written a decade or more ago, sure. But still there's a lot to be improved in a matter of selecting sources. Just one bout as an example, from your book - Choynski's last fight, vs Jack Williams, Nov 21 1904, in Philadelphia. Sources used to describe it (chapter 22, reference 10): New York (NY) Evening World, Pawtucket (RI) Evening Times, Boston (MA) Journal, Wilkes-Barre (PA) Times, Racine (WI) Daily Journal, Trenton (NJ) Times, November 22, 1904; Baltimore (MD) Sun, November 23, 1904. Not one local source is listed, even though the Philadelphia Inquirer has been available from one of the newspaper archives you used, and it has a short next-day report of the bout on page 10. Next to last bout, Jan 19, 1904, vs Kid Carter, in Boston. Sources used: New York Evening World, Washington Times, Colorado Springs Gazette, Pawtucket Times, Philadelphia Inquirer, Decatur Review, Fort Wayne Journal-Gazette, Lowell Sun, Oshkosh Daily Northwestern, Syracuse Post-Standard, unknown paper, Police Gazette. Only Pawtucket Evening Times can be considered a semi-local source, with not one Boston newspaper used, even though Boston Journal and Boston Globe have been available for a long time. It's things like these that make me wonder about what's wrong with American historians.
Oh, I read your post, citing Clay Moyle's "I just finished 'The Choynski Chronicles' by Christoper LaForce," so what you wrote following, is obviously implicit as relating to EXACTLY that: "Just received that book today, and looking through the references I fail to understand why so many boxing writers from USA fail to go to their local library and request photocopies of reports from newspapers from the city where the bout had taken place, instead using only the newspapers that are available online at newspaper archives." ... etc. My answer to that, Sergei, is: Wilkes-Barre, PA and Trenton, NJ are both relatively close to Philly, AND, in so many cases, papers I reference sent their own reporter to the fight, so it didn't NEED to be all local. You fail to mention the plethora of instances when I *DO* use local papers! And, more experienced boxing historians than yourself, men like Tracy Callis and Clay Moyle, loved my book, and every one of my reviews on Amazon (US and UK), Barnes & Noble, and Jewish historical journals like Western States Jewish history, are 5-STAR, nothing but. BTW, what have you had published in Mother Russia, that you'd like to share for our scrutiny?? Take your nit-picking somewhere else.
Your book was just a reason for me to express my opinion about the general approach, not a criticism against your book or yourself in particular. Wilkes-Barre and Trenton may be relatively close to Philadelphia geographically, but based on their write-ups in 1904, they certainly didn't have their own reporters going to other cities. Both of these newspapers were relatively poor in boxing coverage at the time, both started somewhat improving in the 1910s.
I expected at least the Philadelphia Inquirer to be cited for a bout held in Philadelphia, the Inquirer had had a next-day report and has been available at GenalogyBank online archive for a long time (I downloaded the PDF of the page with the report of that bout on Nov 23, 2008, based on the date of the file on my HDD). At least two Boston newspapers (Journal and Globe) have been available at online archives for many years which could be used to describe the bout held in Boston.
It's not about the number, it's about using local sources whenever it's possible. I don't have the book at hand, did it cover the arrest and the trial of Choynski and Carter? It was a big topic in Boston newspapers following their bout.
Out-of-town reports, more often than not, are shorter and less detailed. They also rarely provide the build-up for the bout (how the training had gone, what predictions were given, etc) and what had followed (interviews with the fighters, their managers, the officials; opinions by experts and fans who attended, etc). Besides, out-of-town reports sometimes are sent out by people connected with one of the boxers.
Once and for all, "Senya," you need to get a Klewsky. You're ranting and raving about "American reporting," as though you have the faintest glimmer of what the hell you're talking about. I have two books FROM Russia that I translated myself, an autobio of a HOF hockey player, and another hockey biography, and their research SUCKS!! So, I hope that's just a fluke ... The Trenton and Wilkes-Barre papers (which are a loooong way from St. Petersburg) REGULARLY sent reporters to Philadelphia to cover fights, and you're wrong, there's NOTHING in the 2 dateline: Philly reports to even suggest they weren't there, in fact, The Boston Journal and NY Evening World (Nov. 22, 1904) reporters also indicate they were there. I've had subscriptions to sites like Genealogy Bank, newspaperarchive, etc, etc, as I've said in my book. OH, BTW, here's where I deliver the knockout: I just logged into Genealogy Bank ... The Philadelphia Inquirer (11/22/1904) IS AN ***EXACT COPY*** OF THE WILKES-BARRE TIMES REPORT, WHICH IS WHY I DIDN'T USE IT!!! The same goes for the Carter fight you mentioned. I use local reports, when they aren't duplicates of others! So much for your Forum Flamer crap. You, sir, need to do a little bit of research of your *OWN,* before muckraking to make yourself feel important. If you had actually READ the Inquirer article that you downloaded, you'd have known that it echoes what I quoted in the book! In closing, I'll just say that I've already wasted too much time on your petty tirade-with-a-personal-agenda, and will now permanently leave this thread! And, Thank you for putting some logic, intellect and fairness in the thread, Dubblechin!
What do books from Russia have to do with me? Am I listed among the authors? Re-printing the wire reports (sent from the town where the bout had taken place) and having a staff correspondent report the bout are two very different things. I've seen enough of Trenton Times and Wilkes-Barre Times sporting pages from 1904 and thereabouts during my research of Joe Gans, and I don't remember once them sending their own correspondent to Philadelphia to report any bout. When this happened the newspapers usually put "by staff correspondent" between the title and the text. Pawtucket Evening Times did send their own reporter to Boston occasionally, and they put the "staff correspondent" note in the report in such cases, but more often they borrowed a report from one of Boston newspapers, most often it was Boston Herald, less often Post and Journal. Inquirer's report is an exact copy of Wilkes-Barre Times, not vice versa? Are you implying that the Wilkes-Barre newspaper had sent its own correspondent to Phila to report that bout, and the Inquirer borrowed his report, and the only part written by the Inquirer's writer was the last paragraph, which is missing in the Wilkes-Barre report?
Riveting thread. Great work from all parties. I have Fitz outside the top ten. But wouldn't argue with anyone who had him at 6-10.