Tyson, Holmes...who did think / want to win?

oh yeah wanted holmo to beat the odds, like we wanted ali to beat larry back in the day. once last great victory.

but it never happens like that.

 

Holmes is ****ing overrated here.This guy had never chance against Tyson.
Tyson beat him much more easier than others.Tyson was much more better
against Holmes than other fighters.
What was Holmes' best win? Maybe the total sick Ali? Faded glass-chinned Norton(close fight) ?
The mediocre 15-0-0 Witherspoon(close fight) ? The mediocre Mercer?
( I think Smith and Berbick weren't in prime against Holmes)
To me Holmes went a 0-6 against his best opponents (Spinks,Tyson,Holyfield,prime
McCall,Nielsen).Plus the mediocre Snipes knocked the prime Holmes down.
So many excuses around Holmes these hide the truth about Larry.
Only two extreme good things are in Larry Holmes' carrier:

1.His longevity.
2.His heart.
Holmes was great but maximum 10-15. best heavyweight fighter ever.
Holmes never was undisputed champion.Maybe he doesn't deserve the 10. place.

 

Tyson was only 21 years old.

 

Because he was fighting a youthful up and comer with tools. And a two fisted combo hitter. Not a 1 punch Weaver or shavers type guy.

Larry hadn't fought that kind of guy since he fought Wells as an amatuer. And I sure didn't think it was an oversight or coincidence. There weren't many around but even guys like a Coetzee and a Page were avoided. Tyson was a whole different kettle of fish.

But the guy Larry compares himself to--Ali--won his fight with Foreman when he was expected to get destroyed. this was the Holmes chance wearing those shoes. He was finally going into a lions den and I thought anyway, for the first time in his career.

And in the movies, they win. But seldom in the sport does the old guy pull it out. and ealy on, i could see Larry never ever got comfy.

And Mike fought smart. Maybe his smartest fight. He landed a ton of right leads to the body. didn't bother going upstairs. But he pressured Holmes and forced him off that comfy pitchers mound Holmes loved. And those hands came down. Holmes has a real good chin and recovery powers, but he was never a guy aI thought took a shot to the body well. It was going to be interesting to see how that worked with a Tyson.

Equally important, he finally threw a right lead in the 4th and connected with those Holmes hands low. Just like lots of guys did on Holmes with their rights. Big difference was Tyson didn't do it with 30 seconds left in the round. He did it early. So Larry had 2 minutes to kill. Not 20 or 30 seconds like other times when he was hurt. Very smart and I'm sure very calculated.

Going in, I thought Holmes was way over his head. But sometimes those old guys can reach back and pull out the surprising upset.

Not much clamouring for a rematch, was there? If Holmes really thought he could handle the guy, he'd have got a rematch sometime in the future with Iron Mike.

 

Its a bit like Liston vs 'Clay'.

Listons a great fighter, but he was in the wrong place at the wrong time against the wrong guy in the wrong era.

I did read somewhere Holmes said he'd fight anybody but he never wanted to face Tyson ever again.

 

Tyson was to much for Holmes Holmes was caught in the shaver fight and almost put to sleep.

Plus I remember Tyson saying something along the lines that he used to study holmes so much that he always knew how to beat that is why tyson caught him with that overhand right because larry didnt give alot of head movement or upper body movement

 

Consider a few key point here. Tyson never climbed off the canvas to pull anything out of the fire. Ever. Also, Tyson managed to beat several contenders previously dented by Holmes.

 

Maybe that's because he never needed most of the times or simply he was too good to do it for most fighters. It took a war to put him down. I find it ridiculous to see these things held against him. His most early to, ko's took place right at the end of his career where he viewed boxing as why do I have to do this.

 

If you believe Tyson EVER entered the ring with the intention of getting beaten up and KO'd, then you are a bigger fool than he is.

At the moment you are merely gullible for falling for his lame excuses regarding his defeats.

 

Nobody intends to lose unless they want to throw the match but all boxers will not have the same fire in their belly forever and they cannot beat training nor the clock. History is full of fighters who stayed on for longer than they should have and when they just fought for the paycheque dangerously for eg the great Ali, rather than for glory and true love of the sport.

Every defeat has a legitimate reason. For eg the Lewis loss to rahman would never have happened if he bothered to train and take the fight seriously as he was obviously the better fighter

 

So if he'd been knocked down a few times by Pinklon Thomas or Mike Spinks before beating them, would you be more impressed?

 

I was a Larry Holmes fan and hoped he would win but my head told me he was too old and too rusty to have a serious chance. Having said that however, I still feel if he could have sustained the early barrage and taken him into the later rounds it would have been interesting. I also feel if his glove hadn't got caught on the top rope and he'd have been able to avoid the finisher he would have survived the round and regrouped. On balance however I feel Tyson's relentless attacks would have worn Larry down before the 8th round.

Now to the controversial bit. I think Larry Holmes is one of the most underrated heavyweights in history and would put him above Tyson in a list of all time greats. Holmes was unfortunate in that he followed the greatest heavyweight of all time in Muhammad Ali, and I feel he suffered in comparison. The fighters Holmes defeated in his lengthy reign are certainly better than a lot of the bums Joe Louis disposed of. Let us not forget that Joe Louis, who many rate in the top three, was decked by Tony Galento, and James Braddock, and was being soundly outboxed by light heavyweight Billy Conn until Conn got ****y and tried to outslug him. Marciano was being comfortably beaten by an ancient Jersey Joe Walcott until he managed to land the suzy Q. Following the re-match in which Jersey Joe was undoubtedly gun-shy he fought blown up light heavyweights (and old ones at that) and a European level fighter in Don ****ell.

I'm sorry if I am rambling a bit here but I think Larry Holmes' record stands a more than favourable comparison with some of the fighters who are rated in the all time top five.

Turning to Tyson, I would really struggle to put him in the top ten of all time. What I will say is that he was probably the most intimidating heavyweight of all time, even more so than Liston. He also had, along with Floyd Patterson, possibly the fastest hands. My problem with Tyson is that he was a school ground bully who liked to dish it out but couldn't cope when someone was not intimidated by him and started to give it him back with interest. He had no plan B. He couldn't adjust during a fight and find a way to win if his opponent did not fold and gave him hell back. To me this is not the mark of an all time great.

One final point. Earnie Shavers was not a slightly harder puncher than Mike Tyson. Tyson knocked people out with speed and volume not one punch hitting power. Shavers was a wrecking ball and could render people unconscious with one shot. He hit Holmes with one of the hardest punches I have ever seen and Larry got up to win. Mike Tyson could not knock out the so called "glass jawed" Frank Bruno. Admittedly he stopped him twice but he was on his feet both times when the referee stepped in. Mike Tyson was knocked out by Buster Douglas.

Larry Holmes in his prime beats Mike Tyson in his prime 8 times out of 10.

 

Tyson had a unique style which made him the most exciting and intimidating fighter, brawler ever. I won't call him the best ever but to dismiss him because he lacked a plan B is pure ignorance his plan A was more than good enough for 95% of his victims and most of his serious defeats occurred when he was not the same fighter anymore. His fighting style was not built for longevity. Plus it's important to note his decline started when he departed from his team and ofcourse just lost interest in fighting.

I personally feel the only fighter who would perhaps have beaten him from 1985-88 was holyfield because holyfield had the chin and heart to beat him. He is the only fighter who had the guts to fight Tyson on the inside.

 

I really think the 86-88 Tyson stops Holyfield Tyson had more tools then plus Tyson was not a brawler he was a highly skilled Swarmer at his peak.

Post prison tyson was a Brawler no where near as skilled as he once was with Rooney

 

It would have been another war, but Tyson would have to deliver relentless full powered combinations to eventually put holyfield on the canvas who mind you might still get up 2-3 times but should be able to get the better of him. He had the fast bobbing and weaving as well back then along with his original team to give him feedback between the rounds