Wlad is the most underated HVY champ ever, Marciano most overrated

Discussion in 'World Boxing Forum' started by pugilistspecialist, Nov 11, 2014.

  1. frank

    frank Active Member Full Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2012
    Messages:
    688
    Likes Received:
    3
  2. Loudon

    Loudon Loyal Member Full Member

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2012
    Messages:
    40,832
    Likes Received:
    10,202
    ForemanJab,

    I don't agree at all.

    I can't envisage Sam Peter doing anything with Ali, especially the version that Frazier beat.

    Frazier had underrated skills, a great left hook, and he was a relentless pressure fighter. He was also much fitter than Peter.

    Ali didn't have one punch knockout power, but he had respectable power. A fight against Sam Peter at Ali's peak, would have been a mismatch in Ali's favour. Peter couldn't have done anything with Ali's speed and movement. Ali could have broke him down, and IMHO, it would either have been a comfortable decision win, or a late TKO. How can I have a serious debate with you, when you've typed what you have above? Sam Peter was a big puncher. He wasn't a great boxer. The bigger and slower a fighter was, the easier it was for Ali in his prime. I can't even envisage Peter getting near Ali.

    There isn't any double standards. Henry Cooper wasn't a bum, and Clay got caught. Lewis also got caught through a lapse of concentration. Anyone can get caught. But getting caught isn't as bad as just getting repeatedly tagged and knocked out. Lewis also avenged his defeats, and Ali toyed with Cooper in the rematch. Wlad didn't, and he was 27 and 28 for two of his knockouts.

    But my main argument is against people who think that Wlad would have beaten the likes of a prime Ali easily.

    That's the argument I'm fighting, and that's where I think Wlad is overrated.

    Again, one punch knockouts can happen. Getting dropped or beat when you're young can happen.

    But if you're doing a head to head fantasy fight, you need to take into consideration that Wlad was knocked out three times by fighters who weren't great, and since then he's fought ultra cautious, against non great fighters.

    There is no evidence as far as I can see, where Wlad would have beaten the likes of Ali, Tyson and Holmes etc with ease.

    Corrie Sanders (RIP) was a very good fighter on his day, who presented a stylistic problem for Wlad.

    But he'd also been in active, and I don't think it would be disrespectful of me, to say that he wasn't a great fighter.

    Nate Tubbs and Hasim Rahman knocked him out.

    I agree with what you've said regarding Sanders' power, and if he'd have landed clean.

    But would he have been able to have landed clean on those other guys such as Ali, Tyson and Holmes etc?

    Yes, I can cut him some slack, and he has come back strong.

    But again, I have to factor in these losses in a head to head.

    Ali's losses and slip ups aren't as relevant, because they didn't happen while he was prime.

    But if you think Wlad is currently in his prime, or his prime was after those defeats, then that's fine.

    But if that's so, I can't see how the new safety first version of Wlad could have coped with Ali's speed.

    Basically, what I'm saying is, I can't see either a younger Wlad been able to have beaten him, or the current one, or the version from 5 years ago.

    I guess it's just easier to say that I can't envisage any version of Wlad beating Ali easy.

    Every fighter has a different set of circumstances surrounding them.

    Fighters age differently.

    Wlad currently looks great.

    Ali aged very fast, and he was past his best even in his early to mid 30's.

    What you've wrote about Doug Jones and Spinks etc, is irrelevant.

    Doug Jones was a fast former LHW who fought a very young Clay. Spinks fought Ali when he was shot.

    It has no bearing on a fantasy fight against Wlad.

    Because in a fantasy fight, we're looking at a 67 Ali, vs any version of Wlad that you wish.

    You can pick the Byrd version, the Haye version, whatever.

    It doesn't matter to me.

    Because IMHO, there's no way in the world that Wlad could have beaten Ali and the like with ease.

    He's not good enough.
     
  3. Slacker

    Slacker Big & Slow Full Member

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2009
    Messages:
    6,774
    Likes Received:
    3
    I've been saying this for a long time. I think that is something that he is working towards.
     
  4. PATSYS

    PATSYS Boxing Junkie Full Member

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2004
    Messages:
    10,481
    Likes Received:
    18
    I believe Tyson was at some point ranked #1 pound for pound by ring.
     
  5. ForemanJab

    ForemanJab Boxing Junkie Full Member

    Joined:
    May 8, 2014
    Messages:
    14,937
    Likes Received:
    12,189
    Ali was a featherfist by any standard definition. Most of his career stoppages came against sub cruisers(guys weighing under 200lbs at fight time). His KO% against HWs by modern day standards(200+lbs) was under 20%. Now compare this with real HW big puncher like W. Klitschko, Mike Tyson and Lennox Lewis who are over 70% KO against HW opposition for the career and we can see a discernible difference. This would rank him among the lowest of the 80 or so HW champions that have been crowned in history.

    The stoppages he had over his biggest opposition in Foreman, Lyle and Listion were all controversial( Foreman getting counted out at 8, Lyle being a questionable ref Stoppage, and Liston being a fix). In 54 combined rounds against glass chins Norton and Spinks, he could not drop them or even as much as stagger them.
    I remember a 6 punch combo Ali landed flush on Spinks glass mandible. No effect whatsoever.

    You can believe that Ali was a "respectable puncher" but just know that such an opinion is not heavily supported by facts, the prevailing opinion of Ali during his career, or even his own comments on his own power.

    So given this I find it to be a great stretch of imagination to think that Ali would stop a 6'2 240 extremely durable opponent like Sam Peter, who could absorb the punches of the much harder hitting W. Klitschko.

    How is he going to stop him? Cut him? Peter wasn't prone to cuts. Get him tired? Peter had very good stamina in his fight with WK. Knock him spark out? Klitschko couldn't put Peter off his feet in their first fight even with his hardest left hook.

    For the record I do think that Ali would be the heavy favorite to beat Peter that Wladimir fought in 2005 but such victory would not come easily, especially if we are talking about the Ali that fought Frazier in their first match. He was dropped twice and staggered badly by Frazier, lost many rounds and ultimately the fight.

    I Dunno, Tyson and Holmes didn't fight southpaws, Ali never fought a southpaw anywhere close to as good and dangerous as Sanders.

    A possibility?? Yes.

    That's your opinion and you're entitled to it.

    In the case of Ali vs Klitschko, I see it as a fight between two great fighters, whoever presses their advantages will prevail.

    I also believe that there has been a cult of personality established around Muhammad Ali over the years that has made people believe he was something he wasn't. I also believe that Klitschko possesses stylistic and physical attributes that would put Ali at a disadvantage.

    I have never suggested that Wlad would beat Ali "with ease".

    What is your logical basis to support your notion that 67' Ali beats Klitschko? His wins over shot middling 50s contenders Cleveland Williams(who had a large section of colon taken out and atrophied leg from a bullet wound) and Zora Foley(who he didn't look very impressive against for most of the fight)?? If Wlad fought those two opponents at that given time, he would have annihilated both of them.

    I am not of the opinion that Wlad would spark Ali out quick(although with an accurate power puncher of Wlad's quality you must admit that that is a possibility).

    It's a close, competitive fight that I believe Wlad stands the better chance to prevail IMO.

    I don't get a thumbs up for my picks?:bart You may not agree with me but I did put some time and thought into it.

    BTW What are your thoughts on the outcome of the Wlad-Pulev fight?

    In your opinion do you think Ali could have taken that left hook?
     
  6. ForemanJab

    ForemanJab Boxing Junkie Full Member

    Joined:
    May 8, 2014
    Messages:
    14,937
    Likes Received:
    12,189
  7. On The Money

    On The Money Dangerous Journeyman Full Member

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2012
    Messages:
    29,548
    Likes Received:
    14,141
    No gay, I LOVE WLAD the boxer and dude, just wanted to get that out. He's been taking total crap on here for over a decade by some total dick nonentity's (racists and Britards mostly) who don't have a clue. I stuck by him after the Sanders and Brewster loss a decade ago, they all said he was finished, I told them they were wrong. I've been proved right. I know class when I see it, and I still see it in Wlad, he is the best.
     
  8. ForemanJab

    ForemanJab Boxing Junkie Full Member

    Joined:
    May 8, 2014
    Messages:
    14,937
    Likes Received:
    12,189
    :good
     
  9. Loudon

    Loudon Loyal Member Full Member

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2012
    Messages:
    40,832
    Likes Received:
    10,202
    :good
     
  10. Loudon

    Loudon Loyal Member Full Member

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2012
    Messages:
    40,832
    Likes Received:
    10,202
    :good
     
  11. Loudon

    Loudon Loyal Member Full Member

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2012
    Messages:
    40,832
    Likes Received:
    10,202
    :good
     
  12. Loudon

    Loudon Loyal Member Full Member

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2012
    Messages:
    40,832
    Likes Received:
    10,202
    ForemanJab,

    I want to thank you for giving me your honest opinions, on the great posts above. When I initially asked for your thoughts, I was expecting only single sentence responses. I was quite shocked when I saw the posts. That must have taken you a long time to do.

    Although I disagree with a few things, you have gone into great detail. I really appreciate the time and effort you've put in.

    I really enjoyed reading your opinions, and I've got a lot of respect for you as a poster.

    Many thanks!
     
  13. Loudon

    Loudon Loyal Member Full Member

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2012
    Messages:
    40,832
    Likes Received:
    10,202
    ForemanJab,

    I don't agree.

    He wasn't feather fisted. He could certainly gain a fighters respect.

    He fought bigger competition in the 70's, but he was a lot less mobile by that point.

    I don't see any HW just trying to walk him down, without showing any respect whatsoever for his power.

    Also, he fought in a different manner to the other fighters you've mentioned.

    He'd rather box than fight.

    He was content to out box his opponents, and overwhelm them with his speed and skill.

    I think he could have had more knockouts if he'd have really gone for them, especially TKO's.

    I don't think the Foreman one was controversial. He had nothing left. He was completely exhausted.

    The 'Anchor punch' was controversial.

    Over 15 rounds, I can envisage Peter getting tired and frustrated.

    I think a decision win would be the most likely outcome.

    Having good stamina against Wlad over 12, wouldn't have been like fighting Ali over 15, IMHO.

    Again, I can envisage a frustrated Peter lunging in and expending energy.

    If Ali could have tired him out, a late TKO wouldn't have been beyond the realms of possibility.

    We're talking a 67 version of Ali, fighting to his full capabilities.

    There's always a possibility.

    By all accounts, Sanders should have done more in his career.

    He'd certainly give a guy something to think about when at his best.

    That's fair enough.

    I know that you personally didn't say that Wlad would have beaten him with ease.

    I haven't heavily factored those particular wins into the equation when I think about a fight against Wlad, and I agree with you that Wlad would also have beaten those guys.

    It's just the way he looked at 25. He'd matured, he was in peak condition, his footwork, reflexes and speed were amazing. He was the full package then.

    :good

    You certainly do.

    I've recently done that, which you should have seen by now.

    Three fantastic, extremely detailed posts.

    Again, I have a lot of respect for you for doing that, it's greatly appreciated.

    I thoroughly enjoyed reading them.

    :good

    I thought Wlad looked very sharp, and I think he wanted to send out a message to the U.S. fans on HBO.

    Hopefully we'll see him fight in the same manner in his next fights.

    With regards to Ali taking that hook, I'm not sure. He possibly could have gotten up, he had a good chin.

    But Wlad could have followed it up with something just as big to finish him.

    The question is, would he have been in that position to have landed it, if they'd have fought?

    Who knows?

    But it was a great shot, and I doubt there's many HW's who could have taken it.

    I'd like to have seen Holmes's reaction.


    Great debate.


    :good
     
  14. Soyouz

    Soyouz New Member Full Member

    Joined:
    May 25, 2014
    Messages:
    52
    Likes Received:
    0
    Marciano with today science, nutrition would be a LHW, and a damn good one.
     
  15. JETSKI

    JETSKI Boxing Junkie Full Member

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2004
    Messages:
    14,758
    Likes Received:
    38
    Top 10 Tomato Cans. That's all either Wlad or Rock had in front of them. There was no real threatening competition to challenge them during each man's reign. Ez to win when the competition is old or 2nd rated.