Greatest overall: Froch or Calzaghe

Early 80's.

:good

 

Ha!

I'm not sure to be honest.

The Darrin Morris incident really damaged their reputation though.

That was just crazy.

Did you hear about that?

 

You make some good points. The only thing I disagre with is I still don't think he would have really been suited to 175 due to both his fighting style and physical attributes. At 168 he wasn't particularly tall, didn't have a particularly good reach, didn't look particularly big compared to his opponents and was usually at a power disadvantage. At 175 those things would be even worse.

I think it's fair that you have doubts, there are understandable reasons for that. There is always two sides to a coin though. Another way of looking at it is, as I said in my previous post, Joe fought Lacy who was seen as a monster, Kessler who was seen as as good or as much of a threat as anyone in the Super Six when they entered (Kessler was one of the favourites) and Hopkins who was considered at least as good as anyone in the Super Six when it began. If he was willing to fight those 3 I mentioned then I think it's reasonable to assume he would be willing to enter a tournament with guys like AA (no scarier than Lacy), Kessler (who he fought and beat), Taylor (had recently lost twice to Pavlik), Dirrell and Ward (both unproven and at the time were not considered to be better than Kessler or Hopkins, who Joe fought in the U.S)

Would he have chased down Bute? I'm not sure who chased who between Bute and Froch but if Joe was willng to fight Kessler, I don't see why he wouldn't be willing to fight Bute. I also heard somewhere (not sure if it's true or not) that Joe's people offered Bute a fight but were turned down around the time of the Calzaghe vs Froch fight.

Your doubts probably stem from the fact that Joe didn't fight away from home that often but that's because he didn't have to. I don't recall him ever not fighting someone because he was unwilling to travel except for maybe Ottke and that may be understandable.
Your doubts may also come from Calzaghe not moving up and chasing fights with the likes of RJJ and DM but again that word circumstances. I'm not sure how much Froch had to chase the Super Six. There is a difference between moving up in weight and chasing fights with guys like RJJ/DM and accepting an invitation to fight guys in your own division who are not considered as dangerous as RJJ/DM. Joe may not have been willing to do the former but I don't think that means he would be unwilling to do the latter. Joe proved in his career that he was willing to travel and was willing to fight the top guys at 168.

Okay then I will say to that the same thing you said. I have my doubts.

Froch may well have moved up in Joe's position but as I said, I have my doubts. Here's why

1. As I said previously, there is a difference between fighting guys in your own division (and not having to chase the fights so hard and probably getting a nice split financially) and fighting bigger, better, more dangerous guys in a higher division (and having to chase fights and maybe not getting little money for very tough fights).

2. I think I have heard Froch say he is not interested in moving up. I don't take that as gospel though because he changes his mind and contradicts himself sometimes.

3. You say Froch hasn't needed to in his own career. I agree he hasn't needed to but he could hae wanted to. Shown a desire to become a two division champ. After he beat Kessler there was nothing left for him at the weight except rematching Ward. He didn't show interest in Ward and he has never (that I know of) shown any real interest in moving up. Plus we all saw what he had to say about GGG. If he has shown no interest in moving up and has said he will avoid GGG if possible then I'm not so sure he would want to go out of his way to chase the likes of DM and RJJ at 175.

We'll never know for sure but those are my thoughts :good

 

It means everything.
Here is a point for you to think of when you note Dirrell. Look at how a slow SMW like Froch was able to make it so that Dirrell was backing up and holding rather than punching and Froch who doesnt often throw as much threw more than Dirrell in that fight.
Clear for Calzaghe with all of them.
Every one of those fighters has a loss dating back at some point to Calzaghe

 

Ha, ha! honestly you are the best!!

Got owned then just completely changed the subject!

You have no Validity Herol.

Now tell me the newest big word your momma's told you. Ha, ha!

 

No, Calzaghe accomplished more.

Calzaghe is the only man to date to have held every relevant world title in his division, he is the first Ring Champion at Super Middleweight and the first universally recognized undisputed King of the division, he was ranked in the top 5 P4P during the last two years of his career, and he moved up to defeat the lineal Light Heavyweight Champion and widely recognized King of that division.

Froch, by contrast, has held two full world titles and one "regular" one at Super Middleweight, has never broken into the top 5 P4P, has never been regarded as the division's top fighter and has never had a fight outside Super Middlewieght.

Further, Calzaghe went 46 fights undefeated while Froch to date has had 35 fights and lost two - yes, Froch's resume is stronger but the facts remain unchanged.

In cold hard facts, therefore, the accomplishments of the two men are:

Calzaghe - WBO, WBC, IBF, WBA (super) and The Ring Super Middleweight Championship, The Ring Light Heavyweight Champion, #10 P4P in 2006, #5 P4P in 2007, #3 P4P in 2008, 46-0

Froch - WBC, IBF and WBA (Regular) Champion, #10 P4P in 2013, #9 P4P 2014, 33-2

 

Froch.

 

It doesn't mean anything.

It's a ridiculous argument.

Instead of breaking down each fighters skill sets, you're saying that Joe would have won without a doubt, because he beat undefeated fighters, whereas Andre Ward hasn't.

It's laughable!

How many fast, skilled southpaws has Joe fought??

It doesn't matter what happened against Froch, and IMHO, there's no way that Froch beat Dirrell.

 

Joe was unlucky not to get bigger names IMO he would have had some better names on his cv.......well documented that Steve Collins was in training for calzaghe and then vacated and Sven ottke did not want to know......would have beat both and froch. Full respect to Carl froch though great chin, engine and decent power. But joe had it all!

 

I'm a bigger fan of Carl Froch than I am of Joe Calzaghe, but there is no way Carl is the greater fighter. People thinking so needs to return to the reality the rest of us live in.

Best win

Joe: Mikkel Kessler. A prime and undefeated title holder with solid skills, albeit not a very impressive resume.

Carl: Also Kessler, but Carl lost their first bout, and the version he defeated was way past it.

Advantage: Joe.

Second best win

Joe: Chris Eubank. One of the movers and shakers of the sport. Were 31 when Joe got his hands on him, and had only lost to one other fighter previously.

Carl: Lucian Bute. Had looked really good against average opposition, but the fight with Carl showed he couldn't really hang with the top crop.

Advantage: Joe.

Third best win

Joe: Bernard Hopkins. An at the time ancient ATG who would defy age and pick up a couple of good wins against champs like Jean Pascal and Kelly Pavlik

Carl: Arthur Abraham. A good boxer but didn't perform too well at SMW. Seemed to have issues with heart and/or stamina.

Advantage: Joe.

Fourth best win

Joe: Jeff Lacy. Unbeaten title holder with good power, toughness and heart. Poor skill, though.

Carl: Glen Johnson. An aging warrior who lacked the stamina too battle it out with a young gun like Carl.

Advantage: Roughly equal.

Fifth best win

Both Robin Reid, but Joe took out a fresher version.

No mather how you slice and dice it, Joe fought the better opposition. People who ***** about his resume are probably blinded by the fact that he cashed out against a past it Roy Jones Jr.

 

Im not just even saying undefeated fighters, I am also saying top prime fighters and looking at how Ward struggled with Froch in such a close fight

 

Where you noted G Johnson for Froch, consider that was older, boiled down SMW Johnson who when a younger prime SMW lost to Sheika in the box off to face Calzaghe, so instead of putting Lacy there, you could have put Sheika and wrote advantage Calzaghe, which shows how much weaker this era is in my opinion. At SMW, Johnson hasnt been very successful and I would have Lacy far higher at SMW, which is where you were making a comparison