Should Louis have fought more than two black men in his 26 title defenses?

I know but I was more interested in Klompton's claim that Franklin's manager wanted no part of Louis which sounds bizarre to say the least, given that it would have been by far the highest paying fight out there... I asked him to give me a source and instead got a novel of the same stuff we've been debating for the better part of a week.

 

Right. There comes a point in time where alleged stuff without proof is just that. At least quote something in context as I have done. Clear as day team Louis wanted no part of Franklin.

For the record I do think Klompton is knowledgeable. This makes his absence of proof all the more puzzling.He has a few heated moments with other posters ( myself included ) but outside of that he's a good poster.

 

I'm not calling BS on him. He said that a book is coming out written by one of the " greatest historians alive" ( name unmentioned ) and in it should explain Jack Hurley's business dealings with his fighter's careers. Frankly I don't know how Klompton can be certain of its content given that it hasn't even been published, unless he knows the man personally and has discussed it with him.. He made some valid points about the timing of certain fights having to do with their never coming off - A point that I've alluded to myself. But he also dismissively brushes off Elmer Ray as being a flash in the pan with nothing more than a padded record, and I think we've read enough articles and reports to verify that this wasn't what some thought of him at the time.. He also rehashed the argument that Franklin losing to Pastor is what justified Louis never fighting him when you, suzieQ and myself have repeatedly argued why that was irrelevant..

 

I do know the man personally.

The points you have been debating for more than a week are asinine. I couldnt give a **** about Franklins unbeaten streak. The ONLY name he fought on that streak was Simon. He broke his hand against Simon and was out. So lets pretend that Franklin got a #1 ranking from the Simon win. That gives him four months between the Simon win and the Pastor loss when he could claim he was ducked. Of that four months he spent a significant amount of time nursing a broken hand. After Pastor knocked him out in 8 he was knocked out in 1 twice in a row by lesser lights. THAT is the guy you want to claim Louis ducked? A guy who MAYBE had a legitimate claim to title shot for a couple of months at most? GTFO.

Pastor had a better claim to being given a 3rd fight with Louis than Franklin did for getting a title shot but Pastor is white so its not as interesting to play that race card is it?

 

Franklin losing to Pastor had nothing to do with his never meeting Louis.. Louis took the Simon fight because he was trying to raise money for an army charity cause and Simon was the bigger draw, presumably because of the good fight that he gave Louis in their first meeting.. Had absolutely nothing to do with Simon being more deserving. Had there been no interest in a Louis vs Simon rematch, signing Franklin right away after he KO'd Abe in October would have made sense, hence there never would have been a Franklin vs Pastor fight to begin with. And you also forgot to ad that Franklin also beat a former Louis contender in Tony Musto along with a prospecting Jimmy Bivens and another young prospect named Buddy Millard to round off an 18 fight winning streak - better than what most people were doing at the time.. he was the number 2 contender by year end 1941 with only Conn ranking above him who Louis had already beaten and wouldn't meet again for years.. As for the broken hand? didn't stop him from getting back in the ring 3 months after beating Simon. Politics, money, and promotor Jacobs hesitance are what prevented Louis vs Franklin... Not broken hands, losses in hindsight, or little green men.... Basically what you're saying is nothing new and pretty misguided.

 

You are right on this point.

There is a lot of focus on any black contender Louis didn't fight, who even has a tenuous claim to have fought him.

At the same time there are a number of white contenders, who had equal or better claims to have fought/rematched Louis, and this passes without comment.

 

M, if "we" are NOT questioning Louis's HEART [braveness], than just WHAT are we questioning ?...Pray tell ? That Joe Louis was a "bigot" ?. I am not understanding the point of this thread...
Common sense dictates either-
A- Joe Louis's braintrust felt that there were NO black heavyweights aside from the almost blind lightheavyweight John Henry Lewis, as worthy as all of Joe Louis's white opponents
OR-
B- Joe Louis's handlers and Mike Jacobs felt that the risk fighting
some of the better black heavyweights [and there were a few]
would prove the " risk was not worth the reward " ?...

 

Yeah, and pretending that a guy who had exactly one noteworthy win on his record prior to his short status as a contender isnt misguided? So lets totally ignore Franklins hand troubles, his managers lack of willingness, his lack of exposure, stature, or big wins, timing, and losses, and pretend he was just ducked by a guy who the year Franklin could have called himself a contender fought seven times, four (at least) against top ten contenders... Okeydokey... :roll:

But lets pretend an 18 fight Jimmy Bivins who was barely a LHW at the time was some kind of great win for Franklin and stood him as a contender for Louis... Hindsight what?

 

Does this include the following.

Burns broke Johnson's ribs.
Burns defended against a Jewish boxer.
The Johnson v Johnson fight was cut to 10 rounds to save the champion from defeat.
Referee Arthur Donovan was crooked.
Sam Langford dropped Johnson.
Johnson intentionally fouled Jeannette because he was losing.
Jeannette weighed 165lbs in his last contest with Johnson.
Ketchel gave Johnson a black eye.
Johnson fouled Burns.
Johnson was tkod by GunBoat Smith.


These ten, and about another 30 allegations from you that are unsubstantiated and repeated periodically.
NB You do realise that ,according to the link you provided the excuse by Louis's managers that two black fighters won't make money directly contradicts your own stance on the matter?:huh

 

Let's examine the underlined statement

".Franklin cleaned out top contenders".
Franklin's best wins during his "streak" were:

1939 Abe Simon
Simon was ranked, but had already been ko'd by Louis.
.
1939 Lee Savold
Savold had won 5 of his last 9 fights and he just crept into the ranking at no 10 a position he would not keep .


Tony Musto
Musto had won 3 of his last 10 fights lost 6 and drawn 1 .He had also been beaten by Louis by a ko 5 months earlier in the Bum Of The Month tour.[not my words] emphatically a club fighter .
Musto had previously beaten Franklin in 1939.

1941 Jimmy Bivins
Bivins was inside the lhvy limit the year Franklin beat him.

At the end of 1940 he had lost to Lhvy Anton Christoforidis
.
He would lose to club fighter Tony Musto in his next fight after Franklin.
Then Bivins lost to another Lhvy Melio Bettina and, in1942 he lost to Bob Pastor.
Not a contender when Franklin beat him.

Curtess Sheppard 1941
.
In 1941 Sheppard was just turned 21 years old. He had won just 1 of his last 4 fights including one to Louis sparring partner
Willie Reddish.

Definitely not a contender
.
So, one ranked fighter and a marginal for a month or so who would lose his ranking.
That isn't," cleaning out contenders".

 

Jack Hurley turned down a shot at a world crown[ light heavy ] a fight he might his charge have won, to steer Mathews into a fight with Marciano, a fight he had considerably less chance of winning.

ps BOARDERS?

 

Pastor has a much more solid claim for a title shot.
After being kod by Louis in1939, he beat Buddy Scott 3 times,Al Delaney,Gus Lesnevich,Booker Beckwith,Tami Mauriello,Turkey Thompson x2,Jimmy Bivins,and LEM FRANKLIN.
Two problems here,Pastor had already been beaten by Louis twice, the 2nd time by emphatic ko after being floored 5times ,and he was WHITE!:yep

No one crying for him?:|:hey

 

Just read Boxing in New Jersey, 1900-1999.

Page 47.

Savold said Franklin hit harder than Louis!

Clearly states that Joe Louis manager prevented the fight!

Franklin cleaned out top contenders and had won 18 matches in a row.

On Klompton's comment, to suggest Franklin's manager did not want his guy to get a big pay day ( and make a lot himself ) , and a shot at becoming a champion himself boarders on the insane. This is prize fighting, which manager would not want their highly thought of fighters to get a chance for money and glory?

I hope this link works.

McVey,

I'm not going to reply to your saved re-cycled garbage a few posts before, as I have already shown you where you can read about it.

I do agree Louis was a hero outside the ring, but in it he used the color line to avoid few talented black heavyweights of the time.

This is not a Marciano thread. It’s clear as day Franklin was avoided by Louis. Read the below link and learn. If you have something in print that states Hurley turned down a title shot from Louis on Franklin’s behalf post it here.

As usual the cards you hold are rather weak.


https://books.google.com/books?id=9s...0louis&f=false

 

You wont reply because you do not have a credible answer you jerk!

 

Pastor had a title shot from Louis ( KO' in 11 ), and lost a ten round decision to Louis before he won the title. He had two chances! Franklin, Ray, and most of the top black fighters had none.