No way, not in my book. IMO he never fought any top names for the most part other than Holyfield that he beat. Andrew Golota beat the snot out of him both times they fought.
Yes against a decent young hopeful who was probably at least fringe at the time and lost before Bowe even worked up a sweat. If you saw the fight, you'd agree that it was a well deserved DQ and frankly I don't see why any of these fights would elude to why he wouldn't be prime. He beat the crud out of Tillery and looking bad in the first round of a bout, even to a lesser fighter doesn't imply that he wasn't world class by that point. He was less than a year and maybe three fights away from winning the crown when he beat Tillery. If you really feel that going a few rounds with Everett Martin and Conroy Nelson was the much needed finishing touch then go with it. I think fundamentally he was ready for a title shot and if he had signed for one at that point, the training camp and preparation that Futch would have put him through would have brought him up to the task. You're nitpicking by pointing out literally seconds where a lesser opponent looked good against him, but ignoring that virtually all those guys were destroyed early and easily.. Tony Tubbs was the only opponent pre-title who gave him any real problems and he was a former world champion.. Upon Bruce Seldon, he was 26-0 , maybe 24 years of age along with being a trim 225 lbs and easily dispatching anyone that Newman put in front of him..
Bowe definately had amazing talent and tools. I love the fact that for such a big guy he had probably the best infighting skills in history. But his weak points are his sloppy defense, the fact he got hit too much and ofcourse his pathetic training and diet habits. I have not seen Bowe fight too many punchers. There is a reason why his career ended so quickly than it actually should have. He had the talent to be among the best and he squandered it.
Who are the biggest punchers Bowe faced? I have read that Tommy Morrison knocked him down in Sparring sessions.
He had the worst infighting defense of any heavy in recent memory. His whole approach to controlling distance was extremely suspect. Why any 6-5, 81" reach guy with a very good jab would concede his advantages and go into the trenches so often is beyond me. But I guess that's how you become damaged goods at 27.
Herbie Hide, Jorge Gonzalez, Bert Cooper, Bruce Seldon, Andrew Golata and Evander Holyfield could all crack. Were these men " all time great punchers?" No. But to say he never faced quality hitters would be just as inaccurate as saying they were.
Didn't he have one of the best trainers in History in Eddie Futch? I am surprised he didn't address this issue. The issue wasn't the inside fighting, the issue was his poor defense, Instead of moving his head or slipping avoiding shots, he preferred to take them.
Because it's not observable. You are claiming the moment Bowe entered his prime was during 90 seconds of footage. What is it about that 90 seconds that makes his prime observable? What is it about gaining a "deserved" DQ observable? I can't rule out that he was in his prime, it's not beyond impossible, but you seem to be disputing my statement based upon 180 seconds of footage. Which includes a DQ win. Open it up to 360 seconds, and you a DQ win, a 90 second win, and a dropped first round to a gatekeeper/journeyman. How can you definitively state that he has entered his prime based upon this? What are you seeing that i'm not? He was world class. He also got demonstrably better on film. In other words, he entered his prime. Probably. Or maybe not, but how it can be contradicted based upon the fights you are naming, I don't know.
I think Bowe entered his prime earlier than most do, it seems. He had a solid amateur career. When I was watching him come up, I thought Bowe was pretty much a finished product when he demolished Bert Cooper on the Douglas-Holyfield undercard. Cooper was coming off a win over rated Orlin Norris and a war with Ray Mercer. Cooper was also in great condition. And Bowe just brushed him off like he was nothing. I don't know if Bowe got better after that. He certainly peaked against Holyfield in fight one and I think that peak continued in the Dokes and Ferguson fights. I also thought Bowe won the rematch with Holyfield (he outlanded Evander by 100 punches), although Bowe's weight problems were a concern before the match. And he didn't exactly fall off after that loss. He still looked solid against Mathis, Donald, Hide and Gonzales. I think from late 1990 (against Cooper) to his fight with Gonzales in 1995, Bowe was arguably never worse than the third-best heavyweight. Maybe Holyfield or Tyson beat him in late 1990 (maybe). Maybe Lewis is better in there somewhere. Maybe Bowe beats them all from 90-95. But talent-wise Bowe was right up among the two or three best for about five years. The problem was his quality of opposition wasn't great. He didn't fight Tyson, Lewis, Mercer, Morrison, Ruddock ... or even McCall or Bruno or Tucker. I think he beats most of those guys, but fights are won in the ring ... not on paper. And I didn't think he deserved all the wins he did get against inferior opponents. He should've been DQed when Newman ripped Tillery over the top rope and out of the ring. Tillery kicking him in the leg after a round ends gets a point deduction - at most. A manager yanking an opponent out of the ring and starting a riot ... in every instance but that one ... gets the manager's fighter DQed. I thought he should've been DQed against Mathis (like Jones was against Griffin). I thought Bowe should've received a second point deduction for fouling Coetzer (instead of getting a TKO win) and that fight should've continued with the warning that Bowe would be DQed if he hit low once more. (Bowe hit Coetzer low in that fight like Golota hit him low in their first fight.) And I think that Tony Tubbs fight could've gone either way. Bowe was an excellent fighter. But he wasn't perfect. He didn't fight the majority of the top guys (really only one). And he got a helluva lot of lucky breaks.
I see where you're going but by that same logic, when was Tyson or Foreman's prime? Because they sure as hell weren't getting very many rounds out of a lot of their opponents leading up to winning the title, and even then, most of their best foes were falling early. Seldon was a decent ( Not great ) opponent who was beaten with ease. At that point Bowe looked like he had taken a step up. A very confident and fully prepared contender with a good team who had just dispatched a better than average opponent without being troubled and when being less than a year away from the time that you claim was his best ( Coetzer fight. ) There might have been a few things here and there that he polished up on, but frankly I didn't see any glaring flaws prior to fighting Coetzer, aside from poor defense - a problem that would trouble him for the rest of his career anyway. I think his most noticeable level of marked improvement was between the Tubbs fight of early 1991 to the Seldon fight of late 1991. I base this on the fact that he fought two men on a similar level ( though an aged Tubbs was still a tad better ) and had drastically differing results.
Bowe for his one or two fight peak was a force. But, overall he is rated correctly.. A fringe great and solid H2H. I would favor many of the greats over him.
Dude, those fights were three months apart. And Bruce Seldon was a flopper. He flopped like that against Ribalta early in the fight. He flopped against Tyson. I wouldn't base anything off that Seldon fight. Seldon was a late sub. It was supposed to be Mercer vs. Morrison that night. Then Morrison suffered a gym injury, and Bowe stepped in to replace Morrison. This freaked out Ray Mercer's team, so Mercer bowed out claiming he twisted his ankle. And then they brought in Seldon on a few days notice - who had just lost to McCall. And Seldon just flopped like he did with Ribalta. He'd get hit and he'd dive face first to the canvas. He was nutty.
Well I wouldn't say "going" I would say any discussion kind of terminates here? If you can't see it, how can it be it, is basically what i'm saying. I'd say that you've extended Bowe the entire benefit of the doubt here, and that's your business, up to you and that, but I don't see how it can be sensibly seen as a genuine contradiction (ie evidence based) of what I said? In fact, Foreman's prime is observable retrospectively. I'd say it begins when he catches up to Gregorio Peralta in ten rounds in 1971 and runs until Ali KO's him. But even if Foreman hadn't had that very observable moment, he gathers another nine rounds that same year and looks as good as he does against Norton in most of them. SO we can point to that. Tyson, I have very conflicted feelings about Tyson's early career and when he came together, but I might point to UD12 Smith and TKO6 Thomas as the last lessons he actually learned. Infinitely arguable though. I don't know if you can look like that based upon 90 seconds of film. I don't think that's necessarily. Or at least I wouldn't like to be held to it, put it that way. Yeah, but it's the Coetz fight that cements his prime, not that 90 seconds. I just watched those 90 seconds and he misses a lot and gets hit a lot. Beautiful KO, but he's not even properly warmed up. He's certainly not "at his best" as I see him in the fights i've picked out.
It was well known that Futch was frustrated with Bowe, his training habits and tendency to get in wars when it wasn't needed. Part of this had to be his attraction to getting into the trenches. A guy with long levers and a high projection point is giving up immense advantages by getting inside. It offers huge openings that previously would have required a lot of energy and timing to create.