Who ranks higher All time? Hopkins or Calzaghe?

Discussion in 'World Boxing Forum' started by Auracle21, Jun 8, 2015.


  1. AnotherFan

    AnotherFan Boxing Addict Full Member

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    I'm sorry, Loudon, but this means absolutely nothing. If a boxer is fine fighting at a certain weight, it doesn't matter what other weight he was fighting at previously. The skill a boxer apply at CW or LHW is excactly the same as the one he applies at SMW. Normally a guy will be drained if he moves down, or lose power if he moves up, but in the rare cases the body can handle it there's no other issue.

    Age is the most common reason to why boxers decline. Since Eubank wasn't old, downplaying the victory gets harder.

    Eubank had spent almost hiw whole career at SMW before he decided to try his luck at CW, which ended up with him losing to Thompson. Being away from a weight class a couple of years isn't a big deal.

    Yeah, he is, but he knows a lot about Calzaghes career and seems to have watched boxing in crazy amounts. I think he has a point when he says SMW was a stronger division while Calzaghe was around. Ward is the obvious exception.

    You're not wrong, I just think it's very hard to prepare for someone like Calzaghe, so I doubt this specific aspect made much or any difference.

    I think top athletes in the money stream does a lot to keep going. I don't think injections are a very rare thing. But I can't know for sure.

    The weight issue is and remains irrelevant. And you rarely fight the best version of anyone, since a boxers peak may be limited to a few fights.

    Thanks for the link. It's an interesting read, but some of it doesn't seem to bolster your case. Eubank says the losses to Collins was NOT because a decline:

    Eubank also says he needed sparing in order to be able to suck up the pain. But Calzaghes main attribute was never his power. I agree circumstances for preparations was a factor, but not as big as you claim.

    It's fully possible that Eubank would have defeated Calzaghe during his peak. The issue as I see it is if Calzaghes win over Eubank was as big as the name, and I still think that's the case.

    Eubank seems to disagree with you.

    I only overlook the factors that are of questionable relevance.
     
  2. AnotherFan

    AnotherFan Boxing Addict Full Member

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    It's a useful definition since boxers can be elite without being great. Like Andre Ward or David Haye.
     
  3. AnotherFan

    AnotherFan Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Thanks. I can agree with Calzaghe as far as that Eubank was not a name as big as Hopkins or Jones Jr. If Calzaghe had defeated Hopkins at 38, I think it would have been bigger than his win over Eubank.
     
  4. buster007

    buster007 FAB 4 R A GAY PORN CLUB Full Member

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  5. Str8ryte

    Str8ryte Boxing Addict Full Member

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    BHop BY F*ckin far. It's beyond debate. Calzaghe can't hold Hopkins jock.
     
  6. Serge

    Serge Ginger Dracula Staff Member

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    Eubank was not weight drained for the Calzaghe fight. He turned up in excellent shape and actually looked reinvigorated after the much needed rest following the ridiculous schedule he'd been fighting at during his World Tour, where he'd been in action every seven weeks. He looked much fresher than he did for the Collins rematch, where he looked as flat as a pancake after having all those fights in quick succession.


    In an interview with Boxing News, Steve Collins complained of feeling exhausted and needing a rest after fighting 4 times in 11 months - only one of which went past the 5th round (TKO11 Neville Brown). The first Eubank-Collins fight was Eubank's 7th in 13 months, all bar one of them going the full 12 round distance. And 4 months before that sequence of 7 fights in 13 months for Eubank he'd been involved in another grueling 12 round war of attrition against Benn in their rematch too. Collins-Eubank II was Eubanks 11th fight in 19 months, 12th in 23 months if you include the Benn rematch, and most of them were 12 round affairs and many were abroad too: Germany, Northern Ireland x 2, Wales, South Africa, Ireland x 2.

    [YT]L9_171vbhRg[/YT]

    You only have to watch the fight to realize Eubank was in very good shape. Joe was all over him like a soup sandwich from the get-go. He set a ridiculous pace even by his own standards and he fought with a manic intensity and offered Eubank very little in the way of respite. Eubank was left with no other option than to fight back hard otherwise he simply would've been overwhelmed by the ferocity and intensity Calzaghe was attacking him with. And this was a much, much harder punching Calzaghe than the injury ravaged one of later years whose metacarpals were as brittle as dried out twigs. Calzaghe wasn't only hitting much harder back then he was also throwing full power shots at a much higher frequency too and he was hitting Eubank hard and often with them.

    Weight drained fighters cannot fight at that kind of tempo and Pace Eubank fought at that night, especially against an opponent who sets a pace like no other, and ones like Eubank about whom it was common knowledge suffered from stamina problems and liked to fight at their own pace and take breathers each round.

    Joe caused Eubank the most trouble during the first few rounds when he was at his freshest. His hand speed, manic intensity, ridiculous work rate, and two-fisted power was causing him all sorts of problems in the early going. You could see the worried look of concern etched across Eubank's face. He was getting hit hard and hit often and he was clearly looking uncomfortable with it.

    Joe was extremely green going into that fight and had only been past 5 rounds a couple of occasions and never past 8 before, whereas Eubank had been the full 12 round distance 16 times. And Joe had never fought, let alone beaten, anybody above domestic level nor even been involved in a grueling fight before as a pro. He'd won all of his fights comfortably up until then. He'd even breezed through all his bouts in the ABAs on route to winning his second and third titles at LM and MW the previous two years prior to turning pro with ease too, stopping all but one of his opponents, only two of which made it out of the second round (two opponents in total during two separate ABA championships). He threw everything bar the kitchen sink at Eubank trying to get him out of there after dropping him on his ass with a vicious left cross in the first round and he was absolutely exhausted long before the final bell, hence why he still to this day says it was his hardest fight.

    And by the way, and of course you never hear anyone mention this. Calzaghe actually messed up the weight up for that fight. He usually enters the ring about 178 lbs on fight night but he was so nervous about fighting on such a big stage for the first time that he lost his appetite and couldn't get the weight back on, which was hardly helped by the fact that they kept delaying the time of the fight because it meant that he ended up doing almost an hour's worth of pad work with Enzo during the warm up (I have the entire 'Full Monty' Sky broadcast on my HD and it all stacks up with what he said as well). He only weighed 172 lbs by the time he got in the ring and was seriously tired before the fight had even reached the half way point. Look at his face in that video I posted after the weigh in - it looks almost identical to how it did on fight night, clearly more drawn than usual.

    Here's a video where he talks about it and how exhausted he felt during the fight.

    [yt]Ybp3Mx1s9Es[/yt]

    Eubank sure is displaying all the tell tale signs of a fighter whose struggled like crazy to get down to the weight here, eh? That's shortly after the weigh in by the way. During the pre-fight ****ysis one of the Sky presenters had noted that ''it was amazing how relaxed Eubank has looked'' all throughout the week leading up to the fight (the week he was supposedly according to the haters finding it so difficult to get down to the weight.

    [YT]81wHvk-gVDg[/YT]

    [yt]fJqDEwtu0Ho[/yt]

    And Calzaghe (who is a big lad - he walked around at about 14st then) looked like he had a lot of weight to shift himself at one of the pre-fight press conferences. He looked very thick set on the picture on the cover of Boxing News, easily as big as Eubank. I remember it very well because it was the first time I'd ever seen Calzaghe not at fighting weight and I was taken a back at how big he looked. Calzaghe was wearing a black leather jacket and he was clenching his fist on the photo on the cover, IIRC.

    I was convinced Eubank was going to beat him beforehand, but seeing how thick-set and strong he looked actually made me take him a little bit more seriously. I knew he was good but I thought Eubank was going to be too big of an ask of him and that he'd punch himself out and end up getting stopped in the later rounds.



    Check out some of the things the commentary team were saying during the fight.

    ''Well if Eubank is tight at the weight you could've fooled me''

    ''You certainly could. He's fought at such a pace and took such heavy punches''

    ''And that's a tribute to how hard he's worked for this''

    [yt]RG54S3q0e88[/yt]

    ''Eubank is making Calzaghe work for every one of these rounds. He's showing great courage and great work rate''

    [yt]6AH1M1KQwhY[/yt]

    ''This is twice as good as most Eubank fights''

    ''What a fight this is turning out to be''


    [yt]KbG9g4bYpcE[/yt]

    ''You give Eubank enormous credit here because he's tried to match Calzaghe's fire with plenty of his own and, you know, against many, many people this level of performance would've been enough for a big win for him tonight''

    ''Eubank's fighting a good fight, there's still a lot left''


    [yt]TU2hE9-QPFI[/yt]


    And in Eubank's own words:

    ''What were your memories of Calzaghe, having fought him for your old title, the vacant WBO super-middleweight belt in '97, that started his reign?

    "Calzaghe was very skilled and had quick hands. He kept his fence up behind his right leg and always punched in the clinches. When his fence was down, his punches landed from out of sight.

    "Taking the a fight on a few days' notice wasn't a problem *Actually it was 11 days notice* - I had done it against powerhouses like Simon Collins and Anthony Logan, guys who had looked dangerous in recent fights. Losing 20 lbs. in a week wasn't a problem - I had lost that in a few days and won world title fights.''

    Now we know why Steve Collins don't want to fight him. Good fighter!''

    [yt]hFMRWh0cAQc[/yt]
     
  7. Serge

    Serge Ginger Dracula Staff Member

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    Eubank still had plenty left both before and after the Calzaghe fight. The only one of those last few world title fights he looked bad in was the second Collins fight. He looked good in the first Collins one despite having literally everything against him - it was in Ireland in front of a crowd of thousands of very passionate and fired-up pro Collins Irishmen - and him almost being on the verge of tears during the Sky Sports interview a day or two before the fight, when he'd been so rattled and flustered by Collins hypnotist shenanigans he threatened to pull out of the fight at the eleventh hour and had to be talked out of it (by his promoter, IIRC). Despite having all that to contend with he still only lost by a point on two of the judges cards and the referee had denied him a seemingly legitimate KD in the 2nd round and counted a stupid one against him later in the fight when he was off balance and a shot to the body from Collins pushed him over.

    And Eubank looked good against Calzaghe. It was a hell of a fight and both of them fought at a very high pace and each dished out and took plenty of hard leather.

    Eubank looked really good in both Thompson fights too, despite the fact that he was fighting a naturally much bigger opponent who usually weighed about 14st 6lbs on fight night (Eubank weighed 13st 4lbs on the scales for first fight with lead weights in his boots and shorts) and was considered a savage puncher at CW. Thompson was routinely knocking natural CWs and boiled down HWs out in spectacular highlight reel fashion. Again, Eubank had never even fought a LHW who was remotely close to being world class, let alone a big savage punching CW.

    Eubank was winning both of those fights until the eye injury. Eubank's eye was swollen shut by later rounds and he was pretty much fighting blind in one eye from the halfway point in both fights. The reason he was stopped in the rematch was because the exact same eye injury flared up again and that's because he stupidly agreed to step in before it had time to heal properly to save the Sheffield card after Naz pulled out due to his wife's pregnancy. Frank Wazza needed a big name to step in an Eubank duly obliged even though the first fight (which was a savage war) was only three months earlier. One of the commentary team even pointed out during the fight that Eubank's eye was still looking a bit puffy a week earlier.

    Eubank hurt Thompson numerous times in those fights. He floored him once and he also dropped and hurt the iron-jawed Collins too. Eubank even let both Collins and Thompson off the hook in their fights too. He had them both badly hurt only to deliberately stand off and do nothing until they recovered.

    Again, Eubank was ahead on the judges scorecards when he was stopped in the Thompson rematch and he only lost the first one by a single point on two of the judges cards.
     
  8. Serge

    Serge Ginger Dracula Staff Member

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    Hurts Thompson in the 2nd round

    ''Eubank is looking extremely sharp, accurate and technically honed here''

    [YT]sViOowLqHkU[/YT]

    Eubank floors the much naturally bigger Thompson in the 4th round

    [YT]Y63IRISMIR8[/YT]

    From the rematch against Thompson

    ''It's funny isn't it.. for so long Eubank looked lazy so lazy in some of his defences and his earlier era, but against Calzaghe and again tonight he's pulled out two of the most memorable performances of his career''

    ''This is a tremendous performance by Eubank''

    [YT]w7YRb-U94yg[/YT]


    ''This is a draining, grueling battle. Eubank fighting with one eye almost''

    [YT]B3Ltsxnd5TM[/YT]

    The first fight must have took so much out of both of them''

    ''They're doing this very quickly again considering just what a punishing affair the first fight was between them. It's maybe too quick to be perfectly honest with you.

    ''Against Joe Calzaghe where he fought really brilliantly I thought, even in defeat.''

    Notice how the commentators keep talking about the eye injury Eubank sustained in the first Thompson fight and how there was concern it hadn't healed properly due to the short amount of time between that and the rematch. That's because it hadn't, as was noted during the pre-fight talk when one of the team pointed out that it still looked puffy the week before. That's why Eubank was stopped in the rematch, because the exact same eye injury flared up again. But up until that point he was winning the fight, as he had been in their first encounter too.

    ''Well I'd say Eubank has provided more excitement these past couple of years than in all his career combined''

    [YT]T1WOBrmSino[/YT]

    The judges scorecards for Eubank vs Thompson I

    ''They will argue about the judging of that.. I bet when we ask around people have all different types of interpretations of that''

    ''It was a fight that neither of them deserved to lose''

    ''Thompson was hurt and looked on the verge of going a few times''

    ''Probably the most wonderful performance I've seen from Eubank. It's hard to believe this is the fellow who served up so many boring title defences in his early career, but as a challenger in his last couple of fights (against Calzaghe and Thompson) he's been completely superb. That was a wonderful performance tonight. I think the right man got the verdict but what a wonderful fight.''

    --Jim Watt

    [YT]tyTJgFjbcYE[/YT]

    The first Thompson fight is considered to be one of Eubank's finest. Why the f*ck do you think they fought a rematch, because Eubank had nothing left? :patsch He looked really good in both of those fights and he was winning both up until he was fighting with the huge handicap of only having one good eye, against a naturally much bigger opponent who used to routinely flatten natural CWs and boiled down HWs in highlight reel fashion.

    Eubank had plenty left both before and after the Calzaghe fight. That was plain to see if you, duh, actually watch the fights against Joe and Thompson, all of which were all out wars and great to watch.

    This is what Eubank's eye looked like.

    [YT]ti-QObB-7LQ[/YT]
     
  9. Serge

    Serge Ginger Dracula Staff Member

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    Or instead of me having to go to all that effort, hey, you could just actually watch the fights. :patsch
     
  10. HerolGee

    HerolGee Loyal Member banned Full Member

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    To put things in perspective, Thompson went on to lose the cruiserweight title immediately after his soft touch fight with a former smw in eubank. putting in a good performance against a bitpart titlist like Thompson is not evidence of still being good.

    eubank wasn't up to much by then, and certainly wasn't interested in winning a smw title after being forced to drop 2 divisions in days, and eleven days notice to prepare. An absolute joke that anyone things he was a serious contender for even the vacant minor wbo title.
     
  11. lankovski

    lankovski Member Full Member

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    Even as a Calzaghe fan it still has to be Hopkins, what the man has done in the sport is incredible and not just in his latter years. Not easy on the eye but still a tactical genius
     
  12. HerolGee

    HerolGee Loyal Member banned Full Member

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    this goes beyond merely respecting opinion, its acceptance of the rules that form that opinion.

    therefore you are conceding that there is more evidence for room to argue that Hopkins is greater than calzaghe, since he arguably beat taylor AND calzaghe.
     
  13. Ilikeboxing

    Ilikeboxing Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Steve Collins at his peak is a better win than Joppy, Pavlik, old Oscar.
    It's on a par with Bernard's win against Trinidad.
    Its that one elite guy vs elite guy Joe's resume is missing.
    Collins was high in the p4p list back than and in a lot of people's eyes the guy at 168lbs

    Also if Joe beat Hopkins during Hopkins peak, that's another elite name his resume is lacking.

    Like, if you add Joe's resume currently and ADD those two names to the list his resume is arguably better than Hopkins.
    For me, he ranks higher than Hopkins with those names on his list.
     
  14. tennis

    tennis Boxing Addict Full Member

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    steve collins ducked calz

    eubank wasnt peak but wasnt that far gone that he could get the beating he got

    bhop got destroyed in his prime against calzaghe
     
  15. Barry Smith

    Barry Smith Boxing Addict Full Member

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    You talk about Thompson like he was some top World class fighter. Thompson was European level and nothing more and Eubank jumped two weight class for this fight, showing how drained he was against Calzaghe, especially as he took the fight on short notice. He lost both fights and retired, which also shows he was past it.

    The fact you have to jump through these hoops an bring up two Eubank losses, in his last two fights, at two divisions above where he drained himself on short notice to fight Calzaghe, against a European level fighter, to try and amplify Calzaghe's record just shows how thin it is.

    You don't see anyone else going to these absurd lengths when talking about the strength of other fighters records.