Floyd Patterson vs. Harold Johnson

Satterfield had heavy hands. But, in the 1950s, Patterson was arguably a better KO puncher than Satterfield.

Overall in their careers, Patterson faced better competition and had a much higher KO percentage than Satterfield.

 

Yeah I meant to throw Patterson in there as well. His power gets sold short.

 

"he looked like he was in a high speed car crash at the end"

As did Jeffries against Fitz in 1902, Marciano against Charles in 1954, and a ton of other fighters who suffered broken noses or bad cuts and still won the fight.

"Reigning heavyweight champions . . . historically . . . tend to beat the reigning light heavyweight champions."

Except when they don't. Corbett was KO'd by Fitz (yes, he was the middleweight champion). Dempsey lost to Tunney (who was the reigning American-rather than world-light heavy champion), and Charles was basically a light-heavy when he moved up and beat Louis and Walcott. And then there was Larry Holmes and Michael Spinks.

Certainly the reigning heavyweight champion is usually a good bet, but Patterson won his title by beating the light-heavyweight champion in an over-the-weight match. His only win over a heavyweight champion was over Ingo who became champion by beating him and then in turn lost to him.

All of which is a way of getting to the point that Patterson was not a dominant heavyweight champion, but one who came in the back door and so equating him to a fighter like Louis against Conn or Frazier against Foster doesn't wash with me.

"Size and skillwise, Patterson was better."

He was somewhat bigger. I think Johnson was more skilled.

"he never beats Floyd over 15 rounds."

Patterson never won over 15 rounds against anybody. I'm not quite certain why anyone considers that this distance makes him a cinch winner over a man who won several fights at that distance.

On balance, I give Floyd a slight edge because of being a bit bigger, and because of his performance against Moore.

But this is not an out fight, and Johnson certainly could win.

If looking at the records of the two men complicates things, so be it. It should as Johnson fought more top men whom he did well against than Patterson did.

 

Marciano, I agree. The other's I don't. You said you've seen Henry Satterfield. If you have, I am sure you would agree with me that knockout was no fluke. Henry beat Satterfield because he was the harder, faster hitter. Both men came out exchanging BOMBS, Henry's long left hook put bob to sleep.

The Bob Baker victory was tremendous. Baker was young, undefeated 26-0 and rated top 5 in the world, in line for a title shot. Henry looked like a savage on film finishing off Baker.

 

He scored two brutal knockouts over Baker and Satterfield, whom are two of the better heavyweights of the era. Both knockouts are on film, and look devastating.

 

I don't see why you think Valdes hit harder than Henry.

Valdes went 0-3 vs Baker and Satterfield and was unable to score 1 knockdown in any of the 3 fights

Henry went 3-0 with 2 knockouts vs Baker and Satterfield, and scored a total of 5 knockdowns in the 3 fights.

 

I did forget to mention Walcott. Klompton, I do think Jersey Joe was a brutal hitter, and I would rate him above Henry in hitting power.


Al Weill, Marciano's manager was not in a hurry to fight young, talented, skilled fighters like Henry and Baker. Especially Henry who brought punching power to the table. Al Weill turned down a 35,000 gaurantee for Marciano to fight Henry for the right to determine # 2 challenger. Instead, Al Weill opted for softies like Damaged Goods Lee Savold and the protected Harry Kid Matthews.
Much less threats than big punching henry, or big skilled baker.

Marciano should get huge credit for dismantling very legitimate contenders in Louis and Layne, but after the Louis win, he could have squeezed in a prolific fight with Baker or Henry. But Weill wanted to protect Marciano's high rating, so he fed him softies until the Walcott fight. Very good managing.

Marciano never fought styles like Baker or Henry before. It would have been interesting. Marciano the huge favorite of course, but a knockout win over a talented power punching young heavyweight would have negated some of the criticism he receives today.

Henry-Marciano in 52 would have been a classic!

 

What?

Tunney and Charles weren't the reigning light heavyweight champions. They never even fought for it.

And how did Floyd Patterson come in the back door? Floyd knocked out the number one heavyweight contender in five rounds to win his first title and he knocked out the reigning champion also in five rounds to win his second.

Who did Harold Johnson beat for the light heavyweight title? How many guys were rated above Jesse Bowdry? What door did Harold Johnson come in at light heavy if Floyd came in through the back door at heavy?

Also, Floyd never won a 15-round decision because he was knocking guys out. Floyd won eight bouts scheduled for 15 rounds ... scoring knockouts in ALL eight.

On the other hand, Johnson won five bouts scheduled for 15 rounds (all at light heavyweight) and he only managed to score two knockouts in his five wins.

That doesn't bode well for Johnson's chances of squeaking out a 15-round verdict over Patterson at heavyweight like he did against Eddie Cotton. Floyd would've stopped Johnson much quicker than Moore did.

I've gone out of my way not to insult Harold Johnson. He was an excellent fighter.

But he wasn't better than Patterson. Not at all.

 

Man, floyd has a lot of defenders on these forums. You guys do a better job defending him than Cus D Amato did protecting him in the 50s.

For the amount of praise Patterson gets on these forums, Liston should should get a lot more credit for destroying him twice in 1 round while Floyd was in his prime.

On the record,

I think Patterson-Johnson is a very competitive fight, and I wish it had happened. The fans missed out.

 

Patterson really doesn't share the same HW time span as Satterfield and Marciano. He's immediately after them.

I was thinking more 50-55

 

He does get a ton of credit. Liston's entire legend came off those two wins because they were significant victories over the WORLD heavyweight champion.

I have magazines where experts (before their first fight) were picking Floyd to stop Liston because of the trouble Liston had with Eddie Machen.

After a quick loss like that, people back then (like they do now) who picked the guy who got knocked out tended to fade into the background and pretended they never made such claims.

But Liston wasn't a huge favorite to blow out Patterson like he was against Ali (anywhere from 7-1 to an 8-1 favorite). I think the odds were like 8-5 in favor of Liston over Patterson before their first fight. Lots of people were picking Patterson to win.

Up to that point, Floyd had engaged in nine heavyweight title fights and he'd scored eight knockouts.

 

Of course it wasnt a fluke Henry knocked out Satterfield. It wasnt a fluke when 12 other guys did it either, including the comparatively light hitting middleweight Jake LaMotta. This doesnt even include all of the numerous times Satterfield was knocked down in fights he was decisioned or fights he won. The guy was knocked out before the halfway point of a fight 10 times. If that isnt a glass jawed wonder I dont know what is. The thing that made Satterfield so exciting was that he was such a hard puncher and had such a weak jaw that the odds were if he was in a fight either him or his opponent was being knocked out. Henry knocking him out was not a legendary feat or even proof of his punching power.

 

I wish I had seen it, too. I think it would've been competitive before Floyd knocked him out.

 

"Tunney and Charles weren't reigning light-heavyweight champions."

I pointed that out in my post. This only proves that a light-heavy doesn't even have to have been champion to win the heavyweight title.

Of the nine light-heavy champions (including middleweight Fitz) who challenged for the heavy title while holding the next lighter title, three won and six lost. Not a definitive trend.

"And how did Floyd come in the back door?"

You're the one focusing on the difference between light-heavy and heavyweight champions. Patterson won his title by knocking out the light-heavyweight champion not the heavyweight champion.

He was the legitimate champion, but a cloud did develop over his title status over the next few years when he didn't defend against obviously superior contenders like Machen and Folley.

"Who did Harold Johnson beat for the light-heavyweight title?"

It doesn't matter because I rate him a strong contender for the heavyweight title off his performance against heavyweights, not his performance against light-heavyweights.

"How many guys were rated above Jesse Bowdry?"

You're the one who called the NBA the "official" rating organization. This is the opponent for a title fight they sanctioned.

Patterson winning eight title fights by KO-

Would be more impressive if these were all top contenders, but it includes the likes of Rademacher and McNeeley. A bit padded. I don't accept the logic of Patterson knocked out Rademacher and McNeeley--and Harris and London--so he knocks out Johnson. Johnson is a mile above these fighters.

All told, Patterson was 8-4 in heavyweight championship fights. Johnson was 5-2 in light-heavyweight championship fights, but
that is less relevant to me than his excellent record against heavyweights over the years.

After his title reign, when he fought a better class of heavyweights--Machen, Chuvalo, Cooper, Quarry, Ellis, and Bonavena--Patterson scored only one knockout in seven fights against these better contenders.

Just an aside--as the NBA didn't sanction McNeeley as a championship opponent, why do you consider that a championship fight? when you consider the NBA the official sanctioning body?

"He was an excellent fighter."

This one we agree on. If Patterson had beaten Johnson, I would have rated him at worst his third best scalp. I slightly favor Patterson, because of the punching power you have pointed to, but Johnson was a more solid technician, had enough punching power to potentially KO Patterson on his night, and I think might have had a better chin.

 

..i like suzy's post on marciano. he nailed al weil's matchmaking process. maybe rocky would have beaten those guys, but it would have been interesting to see him against them.