Jack Dempsey and Harry Wills, the timeline

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by janitor, Aug 4, 2015.



  1. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    OK I know this is a contentious subject, but it is also one where the timeline causes a lot of confusion. What I have done here is write down the dates of key events, to help people understand their relevance to eachother. It is a work in progress, so I am open to suggestions for improving it. I have left out key fights that took place while Dempsey was coming up through the ranks, and key fights on Harry Greb's resume, to avoid making it too complex.

    1919
    July 4 Jack Dempsey defeats Jess Willard to win the Heavyweight Championship


    1920
    July 26 Harry Wills defeats Fred Fulton

    September 6 Jack Dempsey defends his title against Billy Miske

    October 12 Georges Carpinter defeats Battling Levinsky to win the Light Heavyweight
    Championship

    December 14 Jack Dempsey defends his title against Bill Brennan


    1921
    July 2 Jack Dempsey defends his title against Georges Carpintier

    1922
    January 2 Harry Wills loses to Bill Tate via DQ

    January 6 Harry Wills draws against Bill Tate

    March 2 Harry Wills defeats Kid Norfolk

    June 11 Jack Dempsey signs articles to fight Harry Wills

    July 24 Jack Dempsey defends his title against Jimmy Darcy

    September 4 Jack Dempsey is scheduled to fight Bill Brennan, but the fight is disallowed by the Mayor


    1923
    July 4 Jack Dempsey defends his title against Tommy Gibbons

    July 12 Luis Firpo defeats Jess Willard

    September 14 Jack Dempsey defends his title against Luis Firpo


    1924
    September 6 Jack Dempsey is scheduled to fight Harry Wills, but the fight is disallowed by the New York State Athletic commission

    September 11 Harry Wills defeats Luis Firpo


    1925
    February 1 Jack Dempsey formally announces his retirement from the ring, and splits with Kearns

    June 5 Gene Tunney defeats Tommy Gibbons

    July 17 Dempsey appears before the New York Licencing Commission, and agrees to fight Harry Wills

    September 28 Dempsey signs articles to fight Harry Wills, but his cheque subsequently bounces


    1926
    September 23 Jack Dempsey loses the Heavyweight Championship to Gene Tunney

    October 12 Harry Wills loses to Jack Sharkey


    1927
    July 13 Harry Wills loses to Paulino Uzcdun

    July 21 Jack Dempsey defeats Jack Sharkey

    September 22 Jack Dempsey fails to reclaim the tile from Gene Tunney


    1928
    March 4 Jack Dempsey retires, this time for good
     
  2. billy smith

    billy smith Member Full Member

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    I like the sticking with facts and staying away from opinions on facts.
     
  3. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    The NYT published a timeline around that time. I used to have it, but I can't seem to put my paws on it.
     
  4. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    One event that often gets forgotten, is Dempsey's anouncment of his retirment in 1925.

    We might well speculate about the panic that this migth have caused, among the various promotors and governing bodies.

    Sudenly the title was efectivley vacant.

    The traditional method of finding a new champion, was to match the two top contenders, which was basically going to mean Wills and somebody else.

    Perhaps Dempsey genuinely wanted out of the game, or perhaps it was a shrewd tactical move to put pressure on them.

    Either way, it seems that Dempsey was ultimately too big to retire, and he had to be brought back one way or another.
     
  5. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    Here I offer a timeline of events leading up to Jack Dempsey winning the title, and Wills becoming his outstanding challenger. It involves more interpretation than the previous timeline, so any criticisms are welcome.

    1917
    June 19 Fred Fulton defeats Sam Langford

    September 3 Fred Fulton defeats Carl Morris


    1918
    January 18 Fred Fulton and Billy Miske fight to a draw

    February 25 Fred Fulton defeats Frank Moran, and Jack Dempsey defeats Bill Brennan on the same date

    May 03 Jack Dempsey and Billy Miske figth to a draw

    July 27 Jack Dempsey defeats Fred Fulton

    November 28 Jack Dempsey defeats Billy Miske

    1919
    July 4 Jack Dempsey defeats Jess Willard to win the Heavyweight Championship

    1920
    July 26 Harry Wills defeats Fred Fulton

    After Fred Fulton defeated Sam Langford in 1917, he set about knocking off the other top white contenders, one by one. Some of them were coming off a loss, and some were on the way down, but he prety much rounded them all up. It is not hard to see how he started to be seen as the top challenger.

    At the same time Harry Wills was caught in no mans land, fighting the same black contenders over and over.

    In 1918 Jack Dempsey starts to tear his way through the division, but at the same time Billy Miske fights both Fulton and Dempsey to a draw. At this stage the search for the next challenger for Willard's title, seems to have been resolving itself into Fulton, Dempsey and Miske.

    After Dempsey had defeated Fulton and Miske, he was the natural choice to fight Willard. It then made sense to match Fulton and Wills, to see who was the best possible challenger for Dempsey. Although Miske's illness would take him out of the picture, it is not hard to see how he might have been seen as a viable title challenger.
     
  6. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Wills was already a factor before Dempsey came to the title:

    https://news.google.com/newspapers?...AIBAJ&sjid=S50FAAAAIBAJ&pg=5170,1460891&hl=en

    This is a newspaper article from 1915, identifying him as the best HW in the ring in the opinion of many.

    Below is a very interesting article which claims Dempsey "hated" Wills. Dempsey also, according to this writer, wanted to take Wills "down into the cellar" like Jeffries offered Johnson. Plenty for both sides to chew on here :lol:

    https://news.google.com/newspapers?...AIBAJ&sjid=lVQDAAAAIBAJ&pg=3145,4022518&hl=en

    Interesting article on the colour line and Dempsey's intention to break it:

    https://news.google.com/newspapers?...AIBAJ&sjid=mkkEAAAAIBAJ&pg=2938,2855724&hl=en
     
  7. billy smith

    billy smith Member Full Member

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    Thank you for compiling this data In many ways it showed Dempsey cleaning up his division,, directly ie: beating Fulton Or indirectly ie: Dempsey beat Fulton who beat Moran

    Many people don't realize Fulton is a HOFamer with a lot of Fights
    83 wins(72 by KO), 17 losses and 4 draws. named to the Ring magazine list of 100 greatest punchers of all time.
    You don't get a record like that by being
    "No Good"
    Fighters then especially HW had their most activity as pretitle compared post title..Cause to many ways to earn money not fighting
    Middleweights like Greb go broke cause Hollywoods not calling him
     
  8. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Fulton is way underrated IMO.
     
  9. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    The problem with the first article is its full of bullsh*t.
    It states Wills was undefeated , the article is dated Dec 10th 1915 Wills had lost to Sam Langford by knockout on the 26th of Nov 1914.lost to Sam Mcvey by decision on 29th of Dec 1914 had earlier, in 1912 been kod by Kid Cotton, Jack Johnson's sparring partner.Wills lost to McVey by decision on19th May 1915 ,7 months before that article was published ,and he would be kod again by Langford just 2 months after on 11th Feb1916 .
    Wills was becoming a factor but the best challenger in Dec 1915 ? No way!
    The second article claims Dempsey hated Wills but has no confirmation of that from Dempsey. Dempsey co- authored two autobiographies both of which I have, in them he stated the only man he hated was Carl Morris ,because of how he treated him when he was his sparring partner..
    As to the third article Dempsey made a couple of conflicting remarks about the colour line. Very early in his reign he said he would pay no attention to coloured challengers as Willard had said before him, later he softened this stance and said he would fight anyone.Whether he was sincere who knows?
     
  10. billy smith

    billy smith Member Full Member

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    Look

    Him and No 1 contender want to fight
    publics screaming for it
    But the right hand of government and bureaucracy wont allow it to happen but its left hand is demanding it must happen..
    he's champion he feels honor bound to fight no 1 contender
    No promoter will promote even though its a million dollar gate
    its him not Kearns running the show
    He's rich enough to retire wealthy
    Hes 30


    I would announce my retirement then under those circumstances
     
  11. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    I love Dempsey but the facts are he should have defended against Wills and he didn't Rickard ,Kearns & the NY commission must bear some of the blame for that but we can't give Jack a total free pass for the fight not happening.imo

    Wills was the standout contender for perhaps 3 years ,not
    the 6 that has been claimed for him, but that is long enough for him to have earned his right to a title shot.

    I for one wish he had received it because I'm convinced Dempsey bombs him out.
     
  12. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Yeah, it is, but it's like a really ****ty website that knows enough to know a fighter matters and nothing else.

    Toss it if you like, but it's a profile, if a bad one, of Wills, older than any i've seen of Dempsey.

    Well, it does have a direct quote - "One day I'll get him in the same position in which Jim Jeffries got Jack Johnson." The writer then goes on to say that he means challenging Johnson to an all-in in the cellar.

    There's no "I hate him" quote but Dempsey intimates that he would very much like a square go in private for no money.

    Sounds like he didn't like him very much to me, at least on this day.
     
  13. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    I get the idea that relations between the two declined, as Wills resorted to ever more desperate measures to force Dempsey into a fight, and consequently made himself a greater nuisance to the latter.
     
  14. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 Officer Full Member

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    :huh
     
  15. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 Officer Full Member

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    No your wrong

    He was the number 1 rated contender by every major rating system from 1920-1926 until he lost to Sharkey

    6 years

    1920 1921 1922 1923 1924 1925
    6 years


    RING

    1924
    Jack Dempsey, Champion

    1. Harry Wills
    Tommy Gibbons
    Charley Weinert
    Quintin Romero Rojas
    Jack Renault
    Luis Angel Firpo
    George Godfrey
    Jim Maloney
    Erminio Spalla

    1925
    Jack Dempsey, Champion

    1. Harry Wills
    Gene Tunney
    Jack Renault
    Bud Gorman
    George Godfrey
    Jack Sharkey
    Young Bob Fitzsimmons
    Paolino Uzcudun
    Jim Maloney
    Harry Persson
    King Solomon
    Johnny Risko
    Ray Neuman