Why did Bernard Hopkins duck James Toney for nearly 20 years?

Hopkins never ducked James Toney.

 

That's exactly what I'm saying, Serge. Hopkins dieted down to below his natural weight for a decade. You only get weight drained if you try to yo yo and do all the cutting at once. A natural weight for a man his height and reach would be about 175-185 pounds. If he wants to diet, then he can get down to 160. If he wants to lift weights and bodybuild he can get up to 200. But that requires a lifestyle change that most people aren't willing to do.

At 160 pounds he had height and reach advantages over everybody he faced that were worth quite a bit. He probably even had better muscles which were built for a bigger man, which allowed him to hit harder, along with the added height giving him better leverage, or the extra arm length allowing him to hit people before they hit him. The skeletal structure of his face would give him a better chin than a normal 160 pound man. He could probably absorb more punishment to his body.

There's all kinds of advantages to fighting in a lower division, which is why almost all of the top fighters weight cut at least ten pounds to fight in a lower division. I always wonder if they would still be the top fighters if they weren't doing that.

 

reminds me of morales floyd , could've happened fought more than one common opponent one was always lil higher in weight etc

 

he maintained his weight for a decade nothing wrong with that, he was 156 v oscar and said he could've made 54


no sports athlete should ever train like a bodybuilder and lifting weights doesn't add bodyweight anyway,

to sum up you're a jackass

 

Hopkins supposedly according to some was some special exception who was able to strip away extra natural muscle mass to campaign at below his natural weight without any detrimental effects.

Sure if every other fighter starved themselves down below not one but 2 weight divisions they would be weak as a kitten but Hopkins was some weird exception who gained an unfair advantage by forcing himself to fight below his true weight not only for his middleweight reign but also when he was a light heavy for no apparent reason. :nut

 

Some interesting replies here.

Bernard was a great fighter, but I think he spent the majority of his career at MW, because it was easier than competing at SMW and LHW. That's my honest opinion.

He'd had almost 20 fights over the MW limit, until around the time he'd fought Roy in 93. Then after he'd lost to Roy, he made a full time commitment to staying in the MW division. But although I think it was easier than fighting at SMW and LHW, I acknowledge that it was also a prestigious division, and I have to give him an enormous amount of credit for literally dedicating his whole life in order to have fought there for 12 years. I don't think anyone but Bernard could have done it. We're talking about a guy who runs everyday, no matter what. A guy who measures every ounce of food he eats. A guy who fights on a Saturday, and who's back training on a Monday. A guy who missed his own Sisters wedding because he was in camp. The guy is absolutely meticulous. I don't think MW was his natural weight class, but due to his lifestyle, he trained his body into believing it was. It's absolutely crazy, but I genuinely believe that that's what happened.

Regarding Toney, I think Bernard was all talk. I don't think he'd have fought Toney in 03, even if Don King hadn't have shaved anything off of his purse. Toney weighed in at 190 pounds. Bernard said he'd fight him weighing only 175 pounds himself, yet according to reports in 2002, he wouldn't fight Roy at a catchweight of 169 pounds for $6m. Then add into the equation that he was trying to break the number of defences in the MW division, and he didn't actually leave the division until 2006, after suffering back to back defeats to Jernain Taylor in 2005. So again, I think it was all talk. He seemed more than happy at MW, and I think he'd have remained there for longer had he not lost to Taylor.

 

Middleweight Measurements
Gennady Golovkin 5'10.5"/70"
Sergio Martinez 5'10"/73"
Bernard Hopkins 6'1"/75"
Marvin Hagler 5'9.5"/75"
Nino Benvenuti 5'11"/75"
Emile Griffith 5'7.5"/72"
**** Tiger 5'8"/71"
Joey Giardello 5'10"
**** Tiger 5'8"/71"
Paul Pender 5'10"/72"
Terry Downes 5'9"/69"
Paul Pender 5'10"/72"
Ray Robinson 5'11"/72"
Carmen Basilio 5'6.5"
Ray Robinson 5'11"/72"
Gene Fullmer 5'8"/69"
Ray Robinson 5'11"/72"
Bobo Olson 5'10.5"/70"
Ray Robinson 5'11"/72"
Randy Turpin 5'9.5"/74.5"
Ray Robinson 5'11"/72"
Jake Lamotta 5'8"/67"
Marcel Cerdan 5'8"
Tony Zale 5'7.5"/69"
Rocky Graziano 5'7"/68.5"
Tony Zale 5'7.5"/69"
Billy Soose 6'.5"/73"
Ken Overlin 5'9"/70"
Ceferino Garcia 5'6"/70"
Al Hostak 6'
Solly Krieger 5'8"/68"
Fred Apostoli 5'9.5"/70"
Freddie Steele 5'10"/72"
Eddie Babe Risko 5'10"/72.5"
Teddy Yarosz 5'10"/72.5"
Vince Dundee 5'8"/71"
Lou Brouillard 5'7"/72"
Marcel Thil 5'8"/68.5"
Gorilla Jones 5'9"/75"
Mickey Walker 5'7"/67"
Tiger Flowers 5'10"/76"
Harry Greb 5'8"/71"
Johnny Wilson 5'9"/72"
Mike O'Dowd 5'8"/70"
Al McCoy 5'8"
George Chip 5'8"
Frank Klaus 5'7.5"
Stanley Ketchel 5'9"

These are the height and reach measurements of the middleweight champions. Average is about 5'10" /71". Hopkins is 6'1"/75". Now, let's look at the average light heavyweight measurements.

Light Heavyweight
Adonis Stevenson 5'11"/72"
Chad Dawson 6'1"/76.5"
Bernard Hopkins 6'1"/75"
Jean Pascal 5'10.5"/72"
Adrian Diaconu 5'9"/72"
Chad Dawson 6'1"/76.5"
Tomasz Adamek 6'1.5"/75"
Antonio Tarver 6'2"/75"
Roy Jones Jr. 5'11"/74"
Antonio Tarver 6'2"/75"
Graciano Rocchigiani 6'1"/74.5"
Roy Jones Jr. 5'11"/74"
Fabrice Tiozzo 6'1"/72"
Mike McCallum 5'11.5"/ 74.5"
Jeff Harding 5'11.5"/73"
Dennis Andries 5'10.5"/72.5"
Jeff Harding 5'11.5"/73"
Dennis Andries 5'10.5"/72.5"
Ray Robinson 5'10"/74"
Donny Lalonde 6'2"
Thomas Hearns 6'1"/78"
Dennis Andries 5'10.5"/72.5"
JB Williamson ?
Michael Spinks 6'2.5"/76"
Dwight Qawi 5'5.5"/71"
Matthew Saad Muhammad 5'11"/75"
Marvin Johnson 5'10.5"/72.5"
Mate Parlov 6'2"
Miguel Angel Cuello 5'9"
John Conteh 6'/76"
Bob Foster 6'3"/79"
**** Tiger 5'8"/71"
Joes Torres 5'10"/74"
Willie Pastrano 5'10"/72"
Harold Johnson 5'10"/74"
Archie Moore 5'11"/75"
Joey Maxim 6'1"/71.5"
Freddie Mills 5'10.5"/72"
Gus Lesnevich 5'9"
Anton Christoforidis 5'8"/72"
Billy Conn 6'1.5"/72.5"
Len Harvey 6'0"/73.5"
Melio Bettina 5'9"/70"
Tiger Jack Fox 5'11.5"/75"
John Henry Lewis 5'11"/75.5"
Bob Olin 5'10"/72"
Maxie Rosenbloom 5'10.5"/71.5"
Bob Godwin 5'11.5"
Joe Knight 5'11.5"
George Nichols 5'10.5"
Maxie Rosenbloom 5'10.5"/71.5"
Jimmy Slattery 5'11.5"/74"
Tommy Loughran 5'11.5"/73"
Jack Delaney 5'11.5"
Paul Berlenbach 5'10"/72"
Mike McTigue 5'9"/72"
Battling Siki 5'10.5"/75"
Georges Carpentier 5'11.5"
Battling Levinsky 5'11"/70"
Jack Dillon 5'7.5"/72"
Bob Moha 5'5"
Philadelphia Jack O'Brien 5'10.5"
Bob Fitzsimmons 5'11.5"/71.5"
George Gardiner 5'11.5"
Jack Root 5'10"/73"

If you knock off some of the really low early ones average for a light heavyweight is about 6'0"/73". Again, Hopkins is 6'1"/75".

 

You can list all the measurements you want to support your claim but there are plenty of other fighters measurements that don't support your claim.

Tyson was 5'11" does that mean he was a middleweight? Keith Holmes was 6'2" does that mean he was a light heavy and not a middleweight. People come in all shapes and sizes, you can get 6'1" welters or 6'1" heavyweights, just because Hopkins was a tall middleweight doesn't mean he was a light heavyweight.

You can't just pick and choose facts to suit your argument. If Hopkins was a fighter who had gained a ton of weight between fights I could agree and say he drained himself down. Had he actually weighed more when he did eventually move up then I would agree and say he was a natural light heavy, but he didn't. If a fighter in his late 40's comes in at a few lbs above light heavy, he isn't a natural light heavy more like a super middle.

 

I'm not weighing in on whether or not they should have fought at any point but I would pick Toney as a stylistic nightmare for B-Hop. Particularly at middleweight where Toney is pretty much a headache for anyone throughout history.

 

I think Hopkins also posed a stylistic problems for Toney as well though. Toney didn't do great against movers like RJJ and Nunn. He also struggled with the counters and defensive moves of Griffin. Hopkins could give Toney some real problems himself with his style.

It would be a close fight. I think Hopkins would need to try to get off first which won't be easy as Toney is faster though Toney prefers to counter so he may allow Hopkins to get off first. Hopkins also needs to clinch to prevent Toney countering him once he gets his shots off, as good as Hopkins is on the inside I think Toney was better.

I can't really pick a winner with any confidence.

 

I didn't say I thought it'd be an easy win for Toney - although I would have picked him to win - and you're right Hopkins would have posed a whole host of questions for him.

Can't imagine it to be a fight Hopkins would have wanted during his MW reign though. It was when he moved up that he really started challenging himself.

 

Your making at assumption there. He didn't really have anyone to really challenge him at middleweight during his time though. Only fighter who stood out was Jones Jr and he fought him, though of course nobody knew Jones Jr was "that" good back then.

Hopkins was always calling out his peers at middleweight but King made sure Hopkins never got anywhere near Holmes of Joppy back then. Hopkins never really had the name or marquee value to get the big fights back then. Nobody was calling him out, most didn't even know who he was. When the opportunities came along such as Jones Jr and the middleweight tournament with Tito he took them.

 

Fair points, but Bernard could have moved up to SMW, and LHW much sooner than he did.

His MW run isn't all that impressive to me.

 

Yes he could of gone up in weight sooner, but why would he? He wasn't struggling to make middleweight, hell he could have made light middle had he really wanted to and not many fighters move up in weight unless they really have to or if there is a big money fight on the table.

What options did Hopkins have at the time? He could have given up his hard earned world title moved up in weight and been just another contender as nobody was lining up to fight him. He wasn't a draw or even highly regarded. At middleweight he at least had a title and some leverage, at super middle and light heavy he had neither of those.

By 97 both Jones Jr and Toney were at light heavy while Hopkins had been champion for just over a year, it's not like people were calling out for anyone to fight Hopkins back then, he was irrelevant.

At super middle you had Calzaghe and Ottke neither of which would have provided him much of a pay day or much respect. Why give up a belt for a title shot for peanuts at a higher weight and that's if he could even get a shot.

At light heavy you had Jones Jr and DM neither of which had Hopkins on their radar. So once again why give up a belt and just be a contender because there's no way he was going to get a shot at either straight away. There simply wasn't any incentive for Hopkins to move up.

Basically the earliest it was worth his while moving up was after he beat Tito. By then he had made his name, he was seen as a viable opponent by title holders in the divisions above and he would have gotten an immediate title shot. But by then Tito had moved up and a rematch had been talked about, De La Hoya was at light middle and a potential opponent, basically Hopkins had more lucrative options at middleweight then so once again the incentive was to stay at middleweight and not to move up.