Jack Dempsey and The Color Line...

Fine I was wrong, he was out for a year after losing to Levinsky. His only fight in the 12 months prior to facing Dempsey was against a nobody, and he was winless in four fights before that. Plus he was dying. The bottom line is Miske in no way, shape or form deserved a title fight. Nowadays he wouldn't even get a licence.

Most of those you named in his winning streak were all fading, on losing streaks or weren't that good to begin with. It was a diminished Miske beating other diminished fighters, and at least two of his opponents had their purses withheld for lack of effort against him.

And now and again when ringsiders cry fake they really are onto something. A lot of people who saw the fight thought it wasn't on the level. Given that the big money Dempsey fight was on the horizon, and the fact that Levinsky folded in a few rounds despite being notoriously tough to KO, I find it plausible.

 

I claimed nothing of the sort You are the one who said Greb was past it by then ,not me. Here is your comment.

"I don't think anyone is talking about Greb fighting for the heavy title in 1925. He was at the end of his rope by that point. The fact that he was able to still rack up such wins is quite amazing. I think we are realistically talking about a window of 1920 to 1923"
And I did not say Carpentier did more than Greb in that timescale. I said Miske's record against top heavies during that period was better than Greb's and it was.

 

You are wrong on the underlined.
After losing to Miske, Weinert lost just 2 of his next 20 fights. Gibbons won his next 6 fights then lost to Dempsey, and then won his next 11.
Fulton had not been defeated in his last 16 fights when he faced Miske.

Renault won his next 4 fights after losing to Miske, shortly after this defeat Renault ko'd George Godfrey.

 

I would say that Greb's record against heavyweights during your timescale 1920 -1923 was inferior to Miske's .

I have shown that Berlenbach's contention that Miske's opponents were past it names ,losing more than winning, is false.Gibbons,Weinert,Renault were top contenders and far from used up and Fulton had not lost any of his last 16 fights when he was beaten by Miske.

In1924
Gibbons was number 3
Renault number 4
Weinert number 6
Renault was ranked in the top ten for the following 2 years.
When was Greb ranked in the top ten at heavyweight?
You are way off target here, so best stop digging.

 

Anyone who thinks Miske was a legitimate threat and viable contender in 1920 either has his head planted firmly up his own ass or its planted firmly up Dempsey's. You can pretend what Miske did AFTER 1920 was impressive but look at the "names" he fought, when he fought them, and on several occasions how he beat them. Most of those guys were past their expiration date and of the three biggest "wins" Brennan, Gibbons, and Fulton. The Brennan fight was considered a fix nevermind that Brennan came into the ring hog fat and had been relegated to a week long stay in the hospital after nearly dying of a brain hemorrhage in his last fight, Gibbons was winning easily when he was controversially disqualified, and Fulton was finished. Every other name on Miske's record was either a bum or shot when he fought them. Miske, what a ****ing joke the lengths are that some people will go to in order justify Dempsey's absolutely **** poor 7 year reign. What had Miske accomplished PRIOR to his title fight with Dempsey? NOTHING. What did he accomplish AFTER that in hindsight made him a worthy challenger? NOTHING. And before some boxrec warrior wants to quote single sentence blurbs to me about how well he had done against Dempsey in 1918 why dont you actually go back and read ALL of the reports from the twin cities, not just those selectively printed to make him look better than the journeyman he was.

 

Weinert was only a couple of months removed from a very bad beating at the hands of Greb. In his next fight he got KO'd by Harry Foley.

I agreed that Gibbons was still a top contender, except Miske's win over him was a fortunate DQ in a fight he was losing and he also lost the rematch.

Fulton was never a serious contender after getting KO'd by Wills. A few months prior to facing Miske he was lucky to get a draw against Bartley Madden.

As already stated, Renault had his purse stopped for lack of effort against Miske, as did Brennan. I don't think it's beyond the realms of possibility that they weren't the only ones holding back against a man who was known to be terminally ill.

Ask yourself why, when Dempsey, Kearns and the papers happily talked up rematches with the likes of Willard, Carpentier, Brennan and Gibbons, there was never any similar talk of facing Miske again, despite this supposed brilliant run of wins.

 

What an absolute load of horse****. Pure horse****. Greb fought Renault in 1921, twice, once in his hometown, BEFORE MISKE, and dominated him in two fights, knocking him down once. Miske's fights with Renault took place AFTER he was handed his title shot on a silver platter as a means of avoiding Wills. Those fights had no bearing on him "deserving" a title shot. Miske's first fight with Renault was considered a tepid, boring, tactical affair which was relegated to walkout bout status on the Carpentier card. In their second bout it took Miske 13 boring rounds to "stop" Renault. He did so by pushing him through the ropes (thats how it was described by the papers) and Renault fell out of the ring unable to get back in before the 10 seconds was up. He was not "knocked out." In fact Miske looked horrible in the fight and was booed throughout. When Miske "beat" Gibbons he had been dominated handily and only "won" when he was given a controversial DQ victory on a foul blow that few saw while Miske was on his way to being knocked out. Fulton may have won 16 in a row but against who? His best wins were against Bob Roper who was beaten by all of the best fighters he fought but who still managed to drop Fulton twice in one losing bout which immediately preceeded Miskes bout with the plasterer and draw with him another time. Fultons other best opponent was human punching bag Bartley Madden who managed a gift draw despite clearly beating Fulton. And since you seem to think hindsight is so important when judging what a fighter was capable of in regards to Miske then just consider that Fulton won just two of his next 8 fights. Charley Weinert's fight with Miske came immediately after he had been dropped, dominated, and brutally beaten by Greb in late 1921. So three of Miske's four best fights (again, all of which took place AFTER he was gifted his title shot) all came on the heals of Greb beating the same men more impressively. Exactly how does tugging on Greb's coattails in a less impressive fashion make him more qualified?

 

OK, let’s say that you wanted to make the case for Miske as a contender, for whatever reason.

How would you go about it?

 

You dont think Miske beating 27years old Renault twice and Weinert is anything? Was Brennan fat when he fought Miske in1921? I have never read a post by you that is anything but negative concerning Jack Dempsey, neither you or Seamus who accused Dempsey of being a *****master who broke in virgins in brothels. I am not justifying Dempsey's reign at all, I am pointing out that from1920 -1923, Seamus's stipulated time line, Greb's record against leading heayweights is nothing exceptional at all.
Is it possible you may one day be able to type a post disagreeing with someone without coming across as a boorish know all who has the only opinion worth reading. Why don't we all just stop posting and starting topics and just read your threads? We know you have done a great deal of research on Greb, **** knows you remind us enough . I haven't read your book the reviews I saw said it was thoroughly researched but a hard read. I wished you well with it and still do, I just wish you could respond to topics without the sneering rude condescension always present in your replies

 

He basically says in as many words, that there was a lot of interest in matching Dempsey with Gibbons, and that he was seen as a serious rival to himself and Wills.

Just saying.

 

I was responding to Berlenbachs contention that MIske was beating up past it has beens.when in fact Renault, Gibbons and Weinert were all ranked heavyweights.I know Greb beat them but I don't know if they were ranked when he did so.
.I cant understand this talk of Greb not being a draw against Dempsey I would have thought it would have made money.

I don't think Dempsey wanted that fight.Maybe he saw it as a no win situation?

Contrary to most I think Dempsey was confident he could beat Wills but let himself be dissuaded from the fight ,a grave error imo, I think he beats the sh*t out of Wills. And Dempsey should have defended against him.



PS I pick Wills to beat Greb.