Hagler should have rematched Leonard

So you're implying that both Leonard and Ali were afraid to entertain rematches?

 

Hagler should not have fought Leonard in the first place. If he had the self awareness he would have realized in the Mugabi fight that the Hearns war destroyed him and that he wasn't himself anymore.

 

I don't think Ali was scared for a minute., the fact that he fought Holmes when he did shows that fear, or even perhaps self-awareness plagued him. If Foreman had beaten Jimmy Young, he would have built up the gate enough and we would have seen a second fight.

 

I think there's no way Leonard deserved the 4th round. Arguably he won the first 2 or 3, but I thought round 3 was even. All the rounds were close. Neither fighter was landing much, having no end product.
"out maneuvering" doesn't exist in boxing without a clear conversion into scoring punches.
Retreating out of range, landing punches to an opponents gloves, and grabbing hold, may "dictate the action" but it's worthless action, as worthless as "stalking with no end product".
In fact, it's arguable that in such a case, the guy coming forward has the advantage in the scoring by default. The guy backing away and clinching puts the onus on himself to produce the real work.
Leonard barely did that.

I'm not saying Leonard didn't land a punch, but he didn't do as much as a lot people tend to think. He made it look good often when he landing to Hagler's gloves.

He even had people standing and applauding for a punch to the Hagler's thigh. No one called it low immediately, not the referee or the commentators. The American commentators called it a punch to the stomach, and on reviewing the replay "it may have landed on the borderline" .... when it was just about as low as a low blow can be ! It was groin/thigh level.
People are seduced by the showboating. That's just one obvious example.
Punches to Hagler's guard are even more plentiful.

 

In the interest of a balanced argument, could you elaborate more on what Marvin Hagler was doing during these opening four rounds? So far you've made very little reference to his contributions at all. What contributions there were anyhow.

 

Actually, HAGLER was the one who didn't accept the rematch. He was traumatized by the loss.

Leonard was eager for a rematch. I have boxing magazines that talk about the purses both were expected to receive. It was really the only fight Leonard was interested in at the time. (Leonard dumped the title because he wasn't going to defend against any of the middleweight contenders. And the Lalonde fight was sort of thrown together when it was clear he wasn't going to get Hagler.)

The head of HBO Sports at the time, Seth Abraham, tried to work with Hagler on a rematch. But Hagler just flew into a rage any time it was brought up. He didn't trust anyone involved with boxing after that.

Hagler hated fighting in Las Vegas after the draw with Antuofermo, and his razor-thin decision over Duran, he felt the Vegas judges were out to get him. He even said, after the Leonard decision was announced, to Tim Ryan in the ring, "I told you" (referring to the judges).

After the fight, Hagler divorced his wife, took the $18 million or so he made from the fight and moved to Italy. And basically he never returned. He was through.

Leonard thought Hagler would come back for revenge, and so did everyone else, and they were all surprised when Marvin didn't.

 

Abraham: There was talk of a rematch, but it never went anywhere. Marvin made it very clear — he thought he was jobbed and he was never going to fight again. And he never did. There were conversations, but they were never at the level of negotiations. If people say Marvin wanted the fight and Ray didn’t, that’s revisionist history.

Leonard: A rematch should have been a natural, but Hagler was so convinced that the system ****ed him that he moved to Milan and retired. I would have fought him a few months later because I knew how to beat him!

Carlino: I was told two weeks before that fight that if it was close, they were going to come back and do it again in six months. But they didn’t figure Hagler would go completely nuts and it would take him a year before he wanted to fight. Leonard played with him a little bit, too. He said he wanted the fight, [then] he didn’t want the fight. Leonard would have fought him again, I imagine, but they could never put it together. Marvin stayed out of the gym and he was getting older, and that was that.

Bernstein: That fight set Marvin Hagler up financially to the point that it’s why Ray Leonard could never lure him out of retirement. If you factor in inflation, what he ended up making was one of the biggest purses of all time.

Petronelli: People thought he would fight again. Bob Arum said, “There’s too much money out there for him, he’s not going to stay retired.” But my old man said, “You don’t know this kid. When he makes his mind up, that’s it.”

http://grantland.com/features/hagler-vs-leonard/

 

Thanks for the insights Dubblechin.

That certainly contradicts a lot of people.

 

And McCallum is full of it. Hagler left boxing while Mike was still fighting at 154. There was never any buzz concerning a Hagler McCallum fight at that time. No talk of it or anything. Mike might be ****ed off because he didn't get the big payday, but he needs to get his time frame straight.

 

Don't think the time line is correct regarding McCallum. He wasn't even a middleweight until after Hagler retired. Any complaints he has about that are unfounded. Like Hagler though, McCallum always exhibited a persecution complex. Hardly surprising he b/tches about something like that.

 

I've always maintained that Ali had very little,if any,reason to fear Foreman. After all he had no problem giving rubber matches to Joe Frazier and Ken Norton. Both of whom gave Muhammad much more trouble than George did.

 

Hagler most certainly did want a rematch. He only retired in July '88, more than a year after the fight. His stated reason was he'd been unable to secure a rematch with Leonard and was tired of waiting for him.

Former middleweight champion Marvelous Marvin Hagler announced his retirement from boxing on Sunday, saying he didn't want to wait around for a rematch with Sugar Ray Leonard.

"My heart says yes (to continue boxing) but my brain says no," Hagler told NBC following the telecast of the WBA middleweight championship fight between his brother, Robbie Sims, and Sumbu Kalambay.

"The only reason I would return would be to regain my title, but since Leonard has been playing games, it would probably take another year to work things out," he said.

Hagler, 34, hasn't fought since losing a split decision to Leonard on April 6, 1987. Leonard, who came out of retirement for the bout, retired again following his victory but recently indicated he might fight again.

"I feel fortunate to get out of the ring with my faculties and my health," Hagler said. "I'm going to say goodbye to boxing. I'm going to retire and go into the movies."

Hagler, who claimed he beat Leonard, said not getting a rematch "still bothers me a little."

"I think Ray is going to continue to play games, being the politician that he is," said Hagler, who watched Kalambay retain his title on a unanimous decision.

Later on Leonard started putting feelers out for a rematch when he was having his veterans tour against Duran and Hearns, but by then Hagler had moved on from boxing and told him where to go.

As for McCallum, regardless of what he claims now, he wasn't even a blip on Hagler's radar when they were both active fighters. He wasn't even in the same division. There was never any demand, interest etc in that fight.

 

No! Hagler chased Leonard for a year after the fight but Leonard refused to give him a rematch.

Leonard never intended to give Hagler a rematch. When asked about his future following the fight Leonard said maybe "you will see me and 6 months 15 pounds heavier fighting for the light heavyweight title" , referencing Thomas Hearns new belt.

Leonard relinquished middleweight title and then announced his retirement. These are not the actions someone who is looking for a rematch.

Hagler: I waited a whole year for this guy to maybe give me the opportunity to get my belt back. I know what they’re going to do — those judges — they think I lost because I didn’t knock him out. And so I had to bring my own judge [holds up one fist] and jury [holds up other fist]. I wanted to fight him again, but he waited for me to get old before he would say, “Now I’ll give you the rematch.” I would never do that. If you feel as though you got a bad shake, I would say, “Let’s do it again.” That’s the mark of a real champion.

Petronelli: Marvin chased him for almost a year for a rematch, but he said, “Nope,” and that was it. Marvin said, “I’m not going to chase him around anymore,” so he retired. Then Leonard, one time, Marvin told me they were in the men’s room at an event years afterward, and Leonard starts talking about a rematch. Marvin said, “I was almost going to grab him around the neck and stick his head in the flush.” He’s like, “You’re talking about fighting a rematch now? Why didn’t we fight when we could? It’s all over now.”

 

Foreman didn't deserve a rematch.

 

Marvin has to take to take some of the blam for this. He let the Sith Lord outmanuever him. And not going for 15 instead of 12. At least he ended up with a beautiful woman out of the deal.