Manny Pacquiao is arguably Top 15 of all time in ATG rankings

His resume will look better as time goes by. Once you read this properly with an open mind, you're going to think the same.

What he did is the same as someone who goes through a career winning lineal world championships like this:

debut 122, 126 first lineal title, skip 130, skip 135, 140, 147, 154, 160, 168, 175, cruiser at a 190 catchweight (where you weigh in at 180).

Just think about that.

There's 10 divisions from Light Flyweight (where Manny started) to Light Middleweight. Yes, it acquaints to the same above (body ratios).


To add to this, the reason why Pac's run is greater than listed above (122-190):

1. Pacquiao came from the lowest weight classes where you don't last long

2. Pacquiao beat a series of ATGs and future HOFs en route (and DOMINATED THEM mostly).

3. Pacquiao is an aggressive fighter - they do not rise the weights well at all. This is empirical fact. Take Wilfredo Gomez for a mere example.

4. Pacquiao has been in many wars so is not the same as he once was, especially considering he was a KO puncher before.

5. Pacquiao turned pro at 16 and lived and fought in poverty conditions until earning the lineal flyweight world championship.


Aggressive fighters are at their best when they're good sized for their weight, or very big for their weight.


Pacquiao's puzzling success at Flyweight - It bewilders me how Manny managed to be successful at all at Light Flyweight and Flyweight. He had a big frame, sure, but size isn't everything especially when you're so weak and ghost like. These are pictures taken of him in 1997:

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/04/28/10/2817A5DD00000578-0-image-a-43_1430213140376.jpg

https://charlesfighttime.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/manny-pacquiao_7.jpg

https://charlesfighttime.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/manny-pacquiao_2.jpg


- This is a crucial thing we always seem to forget. Most outlooks regarding Pac have been too skewed towards the welterweight legacy in the last 7 years, so a lot of other important points are forgotten. When you're THAT YOUNG and you LOOK LIKE THAT, that's hardly an advantage at all - hell, Pac was only 19 when he won the lineal world title against an ATG Flyweight. One of the youngest to do it! But let's forget that this was even an achievement.


We give old timers massive credit for moving up and being successful at higher weights that they had no business in, Pac was the king of this and doesn't get as much respect as he should.

Size matters most in boxing when you don't consider weight classes. If you break that law (at the highest level of course), you have achieved the rarest feat.
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When we look at Manny's H2H ability, we make the mistake of thinking of the welterweight version. His speed, power, athleticism, toughness, heart was an echelon better in the lower weight classes.

You see hypothetical matchups like 'Pacquiao vs Ray Leonard', 'Pacquiao vs Basilio' :huh

Does Pac's loss to Floyd mean anything MAJORLY significant? Absolutely not.

Here's why:

Spoiler: Click this for reasons why

Manny Pacquiao

Pacquiao was semi-shot for the following reasons:

NB: Semi-shot doesn't mean 'sucks'


1. Aggressive Style, being well over age 30.


2. The expiration dates of fighters spending the majority of their career in the lower weight classes is far quicker. Manny Pacquiao was from the Light Flyweight, Flyweight, Bantamweight, Featherweight divisions.


3. Manny Pacquiao was completely and utterly war torn. He fell from prime since 2010! He had been in so many wars...against ATG's and elite fighters. The Margarito fight took the prime out of Pacquiao. I can't think of any great fighter in the last 25 years who has been in wars against as many great fighters. He looked so lacklustre against Mosley and Marquez. It was consensus that he was fading, and that he had lost the 'killer instinct'.

4. Mayweather's prime weight was 130 (where he started). His speed, power etc. was greater in those weight classes, he was also younger then.

Pacquiao actually started at 106lbs (Light Flyweight). 6 weight Divisions from 106-130.
Pacquiao's speed, power, athleticism etc. was ECHELONS GREATER at the lower weights. Manny Pacquiao hasn't even knocked anyone out at welterweight since Cotto. Pac was Golovkin-esque in punching power before. So Floyd fought the softest possible Pac.

Mayweather is the naturally bigger man with the considerably bigger frame. I am DISGUSTED he couldn't knock little Pac out, shame on him. To make it worse, he only beat him on the basis of a couple of light jabs.

5. Pacquiao's killer instinct was already lost, but the KTFO6 by Marquez 3 YEARS PRIOR to the Mayweather fight, had eliminated all traces of killer instinct. He became so cautious. He was no longer the fighter who would take shots from bigger, HARD PUNCHERS like Cotto, Margarito, Morales, Barrera, Marquez and Hatton, to land his own. Pac at this stage of his career couldn't even walk over a featherfist in Mayweather.

6. Increasing emphasis on pure boxing in his career, especially after being KTFO6 by Marquez. This makes his game more predictable to 'boxers'. His crudeness was decreased, his unorthodox manner of aggression had wilted. KTFO6 made Roach turn a lot more towards pure boxing.

The very thing that Manny had when prime, was lost. His very threat was in his killer instinct, his ability to take punches to land his own, and his crudeness. All three had been diminished.

- This is actually a key point in such discussions.

7. Pacquiao had been more devoted to his career as a congressman, focussing on big boy careers, not mere boxing.

8. Pacquiao had a legitimate shoulder injury that Ellerbe was aware of. Pacquiao had a bad camp due to the injury, unable to take a legal painkiller, too. The OFFICIAL MEDICAL STATEMENT is that Manny Pacquiao had surgery for a torn rotator cuff, a 'significant tear'.

9. Mayweather was apparently so dehydrated that he needed IV's (which are known to be used in sports to mask PED use). Mayweather had the T/E ratio of a 128.5 year old man.

Mayweather is not worthy of much credit for this win over 'number 48'.

Besides, Duran the smaller framed man lost to Leonard, Hagler and Hearns. He's GREATER than them all, however.


Are we going to count it against Manny to have fought even fights vs his ultimate stylistic nightmare who has his number, four times, who just happens to be a legit ATG (Marquez)?



W Bradley x 3 (Most probably future HOF)

W Margarito (close to 170lbs on fight night, massive frame)

W Cotto (prime, future HOF)

W Hatton (borderline future HOF)

W Marquez x 2 (ATG)

W Morales (ATG, not prime but near prime)

W Barrera x 2 (ATG)

W Sasakul (ATG at weight class)

W Clottey

W Ledwaba (Pac was a late substitute)

W Larios

W Julio

L Mayweather (Pac was very, very past prime and had a torn rotator cuff)

L Morales (avenged)

L Marquez x 2 (I'm saying for the sake of it Marquez beat Manny in the third fight to make it seem obvious how even their rivalry was)

2xL vs Randoms when a malnourished kid. You have a problem? Well lets hold early losses greatly against Napoles and Monzon then.


How can a modern fighter become one of the GOATs? Be a Pacquiao.



Pacquiao was MEANT TO BE knocked out left, right, and centre, forced into retirement by 140 - Hatton was meant to have him carried off in a stretcher. He defied logic like Duran, like Armstrong, like Langford.

Pacquiao eats super-sized meals to make 147 otherwise he's 140lbs! Pac should really be at LW and LWW at the moment - more details -

Spoiler: Vid where Pac talks about weight

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Pac has the greatest story in boxing history, he's larger than boxing. Third world extreme poverty to Senator.

My criteria is rigorous and I'm entirely consistent with it:

Spoiler: My Criteria For Greatness

1. Resume:
a. Who did you beat/lose to?
b. In what manner did you beat them/lose?
c. What condition were you in?
d. What condition was your opponent in?
If you were in poor condition relatively and your opponent was in great condition, that means something.

2. Head-to-Head ability:

How good are you in hypothetical head to head match ups against the Greats in the past, and relative to your era, who did you beat to allow us to accurately gauge this? If you didn't beat Greats in prime condition, we can believe you will beat Greats but there is more weighting if you have beaten them for sure i.e Golovkin's case, Trinidad's case, Mayweather's case etc. so many examples in history.

3. Longevity:
Ring age, not actual age.

Max shares similar sentiments (starts at 2 mins 34 seconds)..

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It's perfectly valid. Manny has the smaller frame, he was smaller than Mayweather, too. Gamboa was virtually the same weight as Crawford on fight night, but Gamboa is too small for lightweight.

 

Roberto Duran is around 10th. Arguably the greatest lightweight of all time, went on to beat SRL in the first fight at 147lbs, a weight that isn't Duran's prime. Despite being past prime/semi-shot, he earns a victory over good middleweights, too. It's the Manny Pacquiao-esque successful weight climb that has him higher than the boxers he lost to, Ray Leonard, Hagler, Hearns.

Ray Leonard around 15th. He beat the best boxing history had to offer, and over a range of different styles. Ray Leonard more than anyone else can say this. He's arguably the best ever, a lock for top 3 in terms of H2H ability.

Pernell around 23-25th. Past prime, he had an even fight with a prime De La Hoya who I rate very highly, wins over other ATG's like Chavez, Nelson, and earned the title as one of the greatest lightweights, went up to beat a huge, elite LMW Vasquez. l whilst also being one of the Top 10 of all time in terms of H2H ability.

Mayweather around mid 30's. Arguably both the greatest and the best at 130lb, one of the top 10 of all time in terms of H2H ability. He rose up 5 weight divisions, great but yet overrated longevity as he only had 49 fights in 19 years. No ATG at or near prime on his resume. His best reign was at the lower weight classes, and since moving to 140+ his achievements have been less impressive.

 

Yes. Duran is Top 10, but Wilfred Benitez who beat him does not even make Top 50.
SRL who beat him is around 5 places lower. Hearns who beat him doesn't make Top 40, Hagler is Top 50 only just.

Pacquiao was in awful condition, and I had given reasons why in an attached link, it's not even an arguable point. You're not getting the main point either, Pacquiao was not meant to be able to compete at welterweight in the first place, that's the mindboggling aspect of it all. Mayweather should have KO'd him.

Hatton won 2, DLH won 4, Cotto won 3, Mosley won 2, Pacquiao won 4. That's 15 rounds IMO, and DLH was very past prime, Cotto was past prime (this isn't the post-prime Roach trained Cotto, nor is it the prime LWW, WW Cotto), Mosley was ancient, Pacquiao is semi-shot.

All of that can be summed up by saying Mayweather never beat an ATG at-or-near prime.