Does size count even just a little bit?

Not really.

Why would you expect a 190 pound man to enter the ring with a 240 pound man and then say "he's not big enough" why not allow him the opportunity everyone I mentioned had, let them add weight until they can compete at a more even playing field.

For me, saying "Dempsey wouldn't beat Wlad because he's too small, but we're not allowing him to add weight" seems crazy. Like proper crazy.

To put into context, today there is talk of Golovkin fighting Ward, would we say "he can fight Ward, but only at 160 after all he's never weighed more than 160 in real life"

 

Because the argument was about weather or not size mattered.. And Because if you're assuming Dempsey would somehow weigh an additional 40 lbs heavier against Wlad then you're no longer talking about the actual Jack Dempsey but someone you're trying to morph him into.. Additionally you have no idea as to weather or not gaining all that weight is even possible or if it would be beneficial to him or even if his frame could Accomodate it in the same way that Hearn's Frame accommodated weight gain. At the end of the day bigger men are simply bigger than smaller men..

 

You sure about this? I've sparred at two different boxing gyms and while people of different sizes fought all the time, the larger fighter was generally understood to be supposed to take it easy on the smaller fighter.

It wasn't really a secret or anything, although the trainer would sometimes say it quietly to me and presumably other big guys before sparring smaller guys. So maybe some smaller guys weren't aware we were taking it easy on them.

But on the other hand, while I hit softly if I was winning or holding my own, once a real skilled smaller guy was clowning me and i tried, and still failed, to nail him.

For context, I'm 6'3 230ish, not particularly skilled or experienced. And I was never put in with anyone smaller than 5'9 150, though I sparred both pros and novices. The guy who hit me at will and barely took a shot from me was about 5'11 165. His punches didnt really hurt me but it's never fun to look clowned.

 

Not always wars. But enough where it's very common.
I was surprised at first. Lots of good talent tearing into each other to gain some of the realest experience they will ever gain.

My first few sparring sessions I thought were going to be much softer than they were.
The slick fighters are typically usually at an easier pace where they are practicing skill.
But some other guys just go in. Maybe it's because I'm still a noob, I've only started doing serious sessions not long ago. But in my experience you never really know what to expect. I've learned to never assume that someone won't try to take your head off any chance they get.

While we're on this subject, I did see some crazy ****!
This big heavyweight, kinda built like Sam Peter (not nearly as fit) was sparring this slick counter puncher cruiser.

I kid you not, at one point this huge heavyweight layed on the ropes and opened his stomach for the cruiser to started wailing free punches. I thought he was getting hurt. All of a sudden the heavyweight starts singing and rapping. He keeps singing while getting punched in the stomach and doesn't miss a breath, and looked like he was on vacation.

I also saw this welterweight who must be a pro but I haven't seen him online to be sure. He fights cocky and slick like Mayweather and was clowning this amateur heavyweight. He was doing the strangest "dance" moves I've ever seen, like jumping high in the air and landing one foot at a time lol. He would turn his side to the other guy and duck the punches from the corner of his eye while talking to people at ringside. He was like walking with a strut, and ducking everything and landing at will, and the other guy is like seriously trying. The one or two punches landed on him were big, but didn't really effect him. That was the most entertaining session I've seen in person so far.

 

So if Golovkin ever fights Ward is he only allowed to weigh 160 because otherwise he's being morphed into something he isn't?

 

It is only fair to note that these men did come up against opponents of comparable size, because there has always been a tendency to match the bigger fighters against each other e.g. Baer vs. Simon.

So that aside, how well would they have done in a later era?

I think that Carnera would have been one of the more technically complete big men in any era, and that this would have assured him of some success.

He would have needed to be lucky in the draw to become the man in the division, but he likely did in his own era as well.

I see no reason why Baer or Simon could not be a Helinius type contender today.

I am not saying that this would happen, but their power alone would have got them somewhere.

 

The thing I don't get is, if we're gonna match two men how can anyone say

"Fighter x is too big so he wins, however we aren't gonna let fighter y gain weight because he was never that heavy in his prime"

Imagine if they said that to Holyfield "yeah mate you can fight Tyson by all means, but since your a 190 pound fighter we won't let you bulk because you was never that heavy in real life"

"Hey Michael, we'll give you the fight with Holmes, but due to you being a LHW you must agree to weigh 175"

"Hey Pacquiao, you can indeed be a multi weight champion but don't ever weigh more than 112 because that's what you weigh now"

"Hearns I know one day you face Virgil Hill, however only if you promise to come in at 147 and give away 30 pounds in weight"

It goes on and on. A fighter would have to bulk if he fights at HW today, whether he'd retain his skill set or not is a question we can only hazard a guess at.

 

Could you send me a link to that thread? I can't seem to find it and am very interested to read some of the responses.

As for Hagler, the only real Light heavies I can think of that he was matched up with from the 80s were Spinks, Saad, Mustafa, and Qawi. I would pretty much favor those guys over him because like I said they were very talented fighters and from the best era of Light heavyweight boxing.

IMO the heavyweight the size problem just simply comes down to the fighter. Some can handle it while others can't.

 

The only people who say size doesn't matter are people who lack it below the belt and people of this stupid forum who live in their fantasy world where 170 pound fighters could beat 230 pound fighters. Then you realize 99 percent of the people on this forum are completely useless in the real world and nobody cares what they think.

Bob Foster was 6'3 175 pounds. Clearly with that height he could of weighed more than Marciano and other 180 pound so called heavyweights. Foster was extremely skilled and most sane people think he was one of the best light heavyweights of all time. Foster was also one of the biggest punchers for a 175 to 180 plus pound fighters.

What happened when he moved up in weight? Even smaller heavyweights like Frazier smashed. Yet you see the knuckled headed idiots of this forum still say 170 to 180 pound guys like Gene Tunney and Rocky Marciano can beat the Lennox Lewis, George Foreman, Riddick Bowe, Mike Tyson, either Vitali or Wladimir Klitschko ect ect ect of the worlds when in reality neither would make it past one round.

You can be a natural 190 pound guy who has height. So lets say 6'2 plus and get in the ring with a bigger guy and use speed and skill to win. But there is no way some 170 pound 6'0 or less fighter who is going to beat a elite 6'3 plus 220 pound plus world class fighter. There is no way in hell a 5'10 180 fighter like Marciano who almost got knocked out by Ted Lowry a bum is going to stand toe to toe with any of those fighters I named or guys like Tua, Ibeabuchi, Briggs or even other second tieir fighters and win. Nobody is above logic.

Just like Eddie Murphy stated in Coming to America. Every time you mention boxing a white guy has to pull Marciano out of his ass. No truer words have ever been spoken.

 

You're talking about taking HEAVYWEIGHTS from one era and placing them in the ring with HEAVYWEIGHTS from another and assuming that they'd weigh 40 lbs heavier and be effective. Not the same as two guys existing in the same era and one of them adding just a few lbs to jump one weight class. In any even my answer to the thread is - Size DOES matter.

 

why wouldnt it count?

 

That's not what I'm saying at all.

I said if all you're going to use as an argiment, is size, then allow the other man to add as much weight as he needs.

If Golovkin fights Ward it's a good bet he'll weight 175 pounds, that's a 15 pound increase. With the same percentage increase of mass almost all sub 200 former champs would be HW by today's standard.

 

And that's fine. But if you're going to make to men "equal" in size then the advantage isn't there anymore. The premise of this thread is weather or not one man being "bigger" than another has any bearing..

 

Being bigger is an advantage, therefore it makes sense to reduce the deficit.