Liston and Frazier in the WBA Elimination Tournament. What would have happened?

Fraziers hook would not make Liston blink.
Thats no disrespect to Frazier who was a relentless warrior.
He would bring it against Liston all night long and Thats just the thing any fighter that brings it against Liston will inevitably crumble.

You don't stand up to Sonny Liston , Thats suicide.

 

It really depends on how they were seeded.

Unlike most tournaments today, where the top-ranked person fights the lowest ranked person, the WBA did it much differently. The WBA matched 1 vs 2, 3 vs 4, 5 vs 6 and 7 vs 8. Then the winner of 1 vs 2 fought the winner of 7 vs 8.

When the WBA announced its heavyweight ratings and said they were going to hold a tournament, their ratings looked like this 1) Karl Mildenberger (2) Joe Frazier, (3) Oscar Bonavena, (4) Ernie Terrell, (5) Thad Spencer, (6) Floyd Patterson, (7) Jerry Quarry, (8) Jimmy Ellis, (9) Leotis Martin and (10) George Chuvalo.

Frazier backed out to face Chuvalo, so everyone moved up one space below Frazier, and that's how they got their eight.

If Frazier had remained in the tournament, it would've been:

Karl Mildenberger vs Joe Frazier
Oscar Bonavena vs. Ernie Terrell
Thad Spencer vs. Floyd Patterson
Jerry Quarry vs. Jimmy Ellis (in the opening round instead of the final, and 12 rounds instead of 15).

Then the Mildenberger-Frazier winner would've faced the Quarry-Ellis winner, while the Spencer-Patterson winner fought the Bonavena-Terrell winner.

Who knows how that turns out.

And if you throw Sonny Liston in there, who would he replace? Probably Ellis, since he was the lowest ranked.

So you'd have:

Karl Mildenberger vs Joe Frazier
Oscar Bonavena vs. Ernie Terrell
Thad Spencer vs. Floyd Patterson
and Jerry Quarry vs. SONNY LISTON ...

Then, if Frazier beats Mildenberger ...

FRAZIER HAS TO FACE THE QUARRY-LISTON WINNER IN THE SEMIFINALS.

You could've had a final that was Liston-Patterson 3. Or Liston-Terrell. Or Frazier-Terrell. Or Frazier-Bonavena II (because they hadn't had their rematch yet).

Or the final could've been Frazier-Patterson or Frazier-Thad Spencer.

Interestingly, Frazier wasn't considered all that great by everyone when the tournament was announced.

In a July 1967 Sports Illustrated article, here's how the participants were described. (SURPRISINGLY, Liston was Ali's pick to beat everyone.)

Sports Illustrated
July 10, 1967

The Once And Future King?
Though lacking the glowering presence of Sonny Liston—who waits to challenge the winner—a tournament of interesting home television matches will determine the No. 1 claimant to Ali's vacated title

(Excerpt)
Despite the absence of a few legitimate contenders, the tournament is a good one. "There aren't any out bets in the whole thing," says Angelo Dundee, the trainer of Ali and of Jimmy Ellis, one of the participants. "The worst odds may be 2 to 1, and most of the fights are even or maybe 7 to 5, and I wouldn't want to lay it either way. It's a breath of fresh air. Boxing has finally reached the point that all the other professional and amateur sports in the country reached a long time ago. These guys are evenly matched."

The Ellis-Martin bout in Houston certainly supports Dundee's theory. They have fought each other twice before, when they were amateur middleweights; Martin won the first decision, Ellis the second. It is not likely that either will win the tournament, although Ellis must be considered a better bet than Martin.

Terrell, who was savaged for 15 rounds by Ali and survived despite a badly damaged eye sustained early in the fight, is probably the best of the lot. At 28, he is mature without having lost anything to age. He is ring-wise enough to handle the youngsters and young enough to outlast the Pattersons, Listons and Folleys. "The only question is how much Ali left him after their fight," says Dundee.

Liston is Ali's own choice, and Ali is in the best position to judge. "He can whip any of the eight in the tournament,"Ali says. But there are a few questions about Liston today. Since he lost the second fight with Ali in Lewiston, Me. he has confined his activities to knocking over four nonentities in Sweden, and one of the four, Elmer Rush, rose from the floor five times after Liston had knocked him down. He stayed down after the sixth.

"That's not the Liston who used to be," observes Dundee. "He was a great finisher. If he put you down once you might stagger up, but if he got a clean shot and put you down again you stayed down for good. He's no spring chicken. If he's lost his punch, forget him. But if he's on a par with the Liston of the first championship fight in Miami Beach, he can take anyone but Ali."

In the early matches it seems likely that Mildenberger, Terrell, Ellis and Quarry will move up. Mildenberger gave Ali the toughest fight of his career as champion. "He's a lefty, and most fighters have trouble with lefties," Dundee said. "His hardest fight may be with Bonavena, because Bonavena crowds and left-hooks and that's the way to beat a left-hander. I know, because I handled five left-handers at one time or another. But Mildenberger can fight, and this one is in Germany, and that helps, too. He fights like a madman at home."

Terrell should be a clear favorite over Spencer. He has the best left jab in boxing and the best combination of age and experience. Spencer has not shown a great deal, other than a propensity for conversation second only to Ali's. If there is a 2 to 1 underdog in the opening round of the tournament it is Spencer.

Quite possibly the most interesting and exciting fight will be between Ellis and Martin. Both have grown up from middleweights, retaining their speed while gaining power. But Ellis has two advantages: he is trained by Dundee, one of the smartest men in boxing, and he has spent more time in the ring with Muhammad Ali than any other fighter in the world. He worked with Ali before all of the champion's bouts and performed creditably. In his last three fights Ellis has scored first-round knockouts.

The Quarry-Patterson rematch is a toss-up. Quarry is a very tough young fighter who has moved quickly since he turned pro, not surprising in view of the fact that he had over 100 amateur bouts. He put Patterson down twice in the draw they fought in Los Angeles, then lasted through the best counterattack Patterson could mount. It seems likely that it will be Quarry, not Patterson, who improves during the time before their second match.

Aside from Liston, several fighters on the sidelines would seem to have a chance. Chuvalo's forte for a long time was his indestructibility. Ali and others damaged their hands on his head without disturbing his equilibrium. In the last few months he has developed a rudimentary left jab to go with the heavy body punches that carry his attack, but he is at his best with a fighter who comes straight to him. Movement from side to side—as demonstrated by Ali and Terrell in fights with him—seems to confuse him. Still, he may very well beat Frazier, who tends to move in a straight line.

Frazier is ranked high by the World Boxing Association—No. 2—but not all boxers and few managers agree with that rating. "He won't fight anyone," said Spencer. "His advisers make the old excuse that he's not ready. Scrap Iron Johnson gave him all he wanted and Scrap Iron can't walk from here to the door without falling down. You can knock Frazier out with a hard look."

 

I think Frazier would have beaten Liston at that time. I don't think Sonny had it in him to handle Joe`s pressure and power for 15 rounds. I wouldn't be surprised if Sonny puts Frazier on the mat early but Joe wouldn't stay there he would get up and win the fight by a late stoppage.

 

A Liston-Quarry fight in 1967 would've been something.

 

Frazier was considered the best by the time the tournament started in 8/67, by those in the know. Screw some silly SI write-up.

The tournament needed him, he didn't need the tournament. Smart move by Durham and MSG to wait for the tournament winner to emerge, then have Frazier destroy the winner, which is what happened.

And he would have blitzed through the tournament had he entered it.

 

68 liston would have still been dangerous for Joe. Joe was still young and inexperienced going up against the big punching veteran and liston would have caught him early going in. Maybe rocking him or even a put down. But Joe will come straight back firing hard. As the fight wears on Joe will be able to sink those hooks into liston more and more. He ll finally hurt sonny around the ninth and put him down with a scorching left. Liston will rise but frazier will be on fire now and the next hook puts him down for the count.

 

Joe by 68 had already had victories against dangerous Bonavena on pts and stopped
Chuvalo and Buster Mathis. While Liston was prime was early 60's and the Liston who
in 68 was 36 and rumored to be older by few years ( no records ) .
In 69 Liston was stopped by hard hitting former sparring partner Leotis Martin. In 68
a rapidly improving , hungry motivated Frazier stops Liston in 7 rds.

 

The WBA tournament began in 1967. It was over by April 1968.

If Frazier had entered the tournament, he would've gone in with a record of 16-0 and would be coming off 10 rounds with Scrap Iron Johnson (and Joe wouldn't have fought Chuvalo).

Liston would've been 39-3 and coming off his KO of Elmer Rush in Sweden.

Depending on where he and Liston were seeded, Frazier could've fought Liston as early as 1967.

In 1965, Frazier was floored by Mike Bruce. In 1966, Frazier had to get off the floor twice to beat Bonavena. In 1968, Frazier was rocked in a fight against Manuel Ramos.

Frazier did improve as his career progressed, but if he'd faced Liston in 1967, there's no telling if Joe survives that. Liston was still destroying people, and was still two years away from fighting Leotis Martin (who he also flattened in that fight).

 

Hell, if Ernie Terrell had faced Bonavena in round one and Patterson in round two ... he might have made it to the final against Frazier or Liston, too.

Super tall (for the time) Ernie Terrell may have posed some stylistic problems in early 1968 for Frazier, as well.

Terrell was better than Mathis, who lasted 11 rounds with Frazier in early 68. And if Liston had to beat Quarry and Frazier to get to the final, he may not have had much left himself by the time he faced Terrell in the finals.

Terrell may have gotten his confidence back if he had faced Bonavena in the first round and scored a points win. Who knows.

Adding Frazier and Liston would've really turned that tournament upside down.

 

Frazier's own people did not like his chances for Sonny Liston.

Frazier was invited to the WBA tournament, but often out fighting for the NY State title instead.

Both are blemishes on his resume.

 

Liston was still destroying who though? 2nd and 3rd tier opposition. Henry Clark was a decent win but Sonny wasn't exactly going through contenders like he once did. I'm sure he was still strong at least for a few rounds but Joe was bringing heat by the time. As soon as Liston did step up he got stretched by Leotis Martin.

 

Liston was tarnished goods after the fiasco in Lewiston. His name was mud. He had to go over to Sweden for a couple of years made some $$ beating lesser opposition. So after a few years went by he cameback and won a decent fight over Clark and then got brutally KO`d. I don't think the top contenders were scared of him at all by that time. Had he kept winning he may have eventually earned back the respect he had lost and gotten a chance to redeem himself.