My top 20 heavyweights never to win a Ring Magazine / Lineal title.

As challenger to Tommy Burns Johnson, should he defeat Burns ,signed to fight Langford in London Johnson's purse was to be £1000 plus a third of any movie rights.Once he was champion Johnson declared he was no longer bound by any agreements made prior to his winning the title and that his price for a title defence was $30,000
The NSC had previously tried to make the Burns Johnson fight for London, but could /would not meet Burns' price of £30,000 offering a laughable $12,500 purse,. Five days before Johnson beat Burns, Langford defeated Jim Flynn. Langford scaled either 158 or 160lbs for this fight.
Flynn got$2,500 Langford $700!


Had Johnson fulfilled his contract with the NSC and returned to fight Langford on the 22nd of Feb1909 as per the contract I don't think the middleweight Langford would have done much with him .
After Langford ,receiving $2000 had ko'd Tiger Smith in London in a fight advertised as the Middleweight Championship Of Great Britain he was referred to in the ring by the MC as the" Real Heavyweight Champion" ,[ Burns was the reigning champ], Langford cut short the applause stating ,"Say Boss that's not me.There's a big smoke back home called Jack Johnson,who is unbeatable, he licked me in Massachusetts last year and he's improving every month."

Q .Which referee awarded the tko win to Gunboat Smith over Johnson?


Q. Johnson signed to defend his title against Jeannette twice , how is that avoiding him?
Rosenbloom never managed a signature win to justify a title shot at heavyweight, he was only ranked for only 36 & 38. Sharkey was champ for only a year, Carnera only 8 months.Louis did not win the title until June1937, so the window for Rosenbloom to get a title shot was not very large.
Smith had a purple patch of perhaps 18months beating an 18-5-2 Moran and a13-2-0 Willard ,neither at that time had beaten anyone of note. The win over Langford was put down to Sam being out of shape and Langford
destroyed him in the return a year later.Smith's bubble was terminally burst when he lost to 170bs Carpentier being floored along the way.
A month before this fight Carpentier had refereed Johnson against Moran,asked about his chances with the champion he said," I am 4 years away from him at the ,moment I am too light to fight him."
Both Geoffrey C Ward and Fred Dartnell author of Seconds Out, state that Smith did not want any part of Johnson in a real fight.Dartnell interviewed Smith immediately after he had won the White heavyweight Championship from Arthur Pelkey.Dartnell asked Smith if he would now fight Johnson for the real title ? Smith did not reply, he asked him again and again he did not answer after being asked a third time an irritated Smith said "oh Johnson will wait ,and the longer he waits the better".

Johnson offered to defend against Smith several times and continually raised his name as a challenger.Good money for an easy defence.
Ray had a spit dec over Walcott and a very debatable win over Charles, but he was as deserving challenger as Roland Lastarza and several more.

 

Jimmy Bivins worth consideration??

 

STOP PRESS you cannot have a tko in a sparring match.Johnson sparred with two more partners that day after the Smith spar.
Jack Johnson twice signed contracts to fight Joe Jeannette in defence of his title in New York for the McMahon brothers. The chairman of the NY Boxing commission vetoed both fights and threatened any promoter who staged such a fight involving Jack Johnson with the loss of his promoting licence in that state.
I not only posted this several times I posted the purse money and the dates plus the Commissioners statement and the McMahon's statement when they withdrew from the two promotions,you just cannot get around this how ever hard you try.
Johnson signed to defend his title.against Jeannette twice in New York where such a fight would be viable.
Johnson agreed to fight to fight both Langford and Mcvey in a 2 fight deal for Hugh McIntosh in Australia but when Johnson was arraigned McIntosh withdrew his offer.
Again I posted this previously, plus Johnson's purse, the date, and site of the proposed defences.
You just cannot refute this because its a matter of public record. You need to learn that hate won't triumph over truth , that bigotry is no match for cold hard facts.

The Klondike fight is covered in Ward's book but the quotes concerning it are not Ward's, they are Barney Curley's! Pollack's book gives a more extensive account of the fight he said Johnson was worn out and stopped..George Siler who was at the fight said Johnson was half starved and had been depending on free lunch counters for his food.He said Johnson, after flooring Klondike early simply ran out of strength .
On a side note Klondike twice fought Langford for his Colored Crown dropping him twice in their first fight
You are obligated if you wish to keep your word and I personally would have gone through with the contract and honoured my word.
Just as if ,had I been you, I would have honoured the bet you made with me that the Fitzsimmons v Ruhlin fight was filmed it was NOT and I have Adam Pollack's e mail and Gilbert Odd's book confirming that is was not filmed and why ,plus the fact that a RE-ENACTMENT was made later by Luhblin without Jim Corbett, who had been Ruhlin's chief second ,appearing in it because he had left New York, where the fight was staged to return to San Francisco and would not return for a hoax fight .
The re-enactment was advertised as the actual fight but when Corbett was not in Ruhlin's corner as his second, the game was up.
Ruhlin was covered in stage make up to hide his injuries from the real fight and they went through the motions of throwing punches at each other.
We both know we had a bet as to whether the actual fight was filmed ,I said it was not ,you said it was.
We both also know it was NOT, and that you subsequently welched on the bet and went back on your word.Your excuse being," I didn't say when it was filmed only that it was filmed" .Well STOP PRESS, the fight was NOT FILMED what was filmed was a RE_ENACTMENT.

I won't respond with insults to match yours ,the facts speaks for themselves.


Oh well, at least we learned two new Mendoza words.
OBGLIATED & REGURATAING.LOL

 

No love for "exbition"?

 

A rough top 10, most picks are interchangeable.
1. Harry Wills
2. Sam Langford
3. Ken Norton
4. Peter Jackson
5. Tim Witherspoon
6. Archie Moore
7. Joe Jeanette
8. Sam Mcvea
9. Jimmy Young
10. Ron Lyle

 

That's pretty good for Mendoza .He once referred to Sam Langford as Sang Froid! Discussing a boxer he once said that venison of him was old. Good entertainment value sometimes!

 

You made this list so that you could indirectly spread some more of your anti-Johnson bile its so blatantly obvious. Since you cannot refute any of my facts I'll make a stab at a list .
1Sam Langford far and away.Could have fought Burns, Johnson said Burns would not go past 5 rds with Langford.Could have fought Johnson though his biographer Clay Moyle thinks prime for prime Johnson wins.Langford could theoretically have won titles at middle,lhvy ,and heavy
2..Peter Jackson Both Sullivan and Corbett when champion ducked him .
3.Harry Wills deserved a shot at Willard and was Dempsey's standout challenger for some time, miscalculated by sitting on his laurels instead of forcing the issue by taking on either Godfrey , Gibbons or Tunney but he quite justifiably thought he had done enough to warrant a shot.
4.Joe Jeannette deserved a title chance and nearly got it twice. Both fights were scheduled for NewYork , where Jeannette was popular ,being from Union City New Jersey but the Commission threatened sanctions on any promoter who put on the fight.
Theodore Vienne offered Johnson $25,000 to defend against Jeannette in Paris , two snags, Johnson's price was $30,000 and Vienne wanted it to be over 35rds.Johnson was no longer in shape to go 35 rds with any good contender let alone a marathon specialist like Jeannette.
5.Sam McVey won and lost against Langford and Jeannette. Johnson beat a pre -prime McVey 3 times out of three giving him a real beating in their last encounter. Challenged Jeffries and was ignored,nearly secured a title shot against Burns but the Canadian hurt his knee and the fight was abandoned and never rescheduled,probably just as well for the Canadian.Never any real demand for Johnson v McVey fight their trio had been so one-sided.
6. Tim Witherspoon. Gave Holmes a close one when still a youngster after Afro K robbed him he lost desire and motivation, one of the lost generation of heavyweights.
7.Jerry Quarry a bit inconsistent but when he was" on "he was very, very good,the trainer in my avatar, Jimmy Glenn is very high on Quarry.
8.Ken Norton. A nearly man for me ,stylistically he was kryptonite for Ali but didn't do a lot with the others.
9.Archie Moore.A great lhvy and a fine heavyweight.
10 Elmer Ray though his two wins over Walcott and Charles were contentious he proved he belonged in their company. The rest of the pack Young, Cooney,Lyle,Page etc don't really stand out for me and I think Young in particular squandered his chance of being a champion.

 

Is Earnie Shavers worth a mention?

 

He should be. Gave ali a hard fight then came so so close against holmes.

 

He had a fair shot with Ali too. Another fight to re-watch.