If tyson and Ali were to face the other s opponents, who would they lose to first?

I have Holyfield beating Ali. To complete with the will of a Frazier !

 

Except he was hurt fresh by Bruno, Holyfield, Tucker, Williams.......

 

Im not taking apart all of tysons opponents. I praised thomas and douglass as world class. Tucker having an injured hand is common knowledge. Its a fact ruddock lacked ring iq, stamina, defense, and neglected his right hand. Its a fact bruno and smith fought to survive and mostly held in their fights with tyson.

You said "outside of cleveland williams, liston didnt fight anyone bigger than him". I listed 9 examples of him facing opponents who were taller and the same weight or heavier and he koed every single one. The point isnt me saying they were "world beaters" i was just dismissing the notion liston spent his whole career picking on people smaller than him and avoiding large fighters. He wouldnt be the least bit intimidated by tyson who was 2 inches shorter and had a goofy voice.

Youre missing the point. First of all, the thread is having ali and tyson fight each others opponents in order as they age gradually and naturally, theyre not going to stay on their primes against each oppoment. That would be pointless, everyone knows a prime Ali would have a much higher chance againsy Lewis than a 35 year old Ali with parkinsons.

Second, i brought up douglass, thomas, and tucker to point out how much tyson struggled with guys who were the most similar to liston of all his opponents. If tyson is facing all of alis opponents in order he will need to fight liston for the title. The only way to speculate on this match up h2h is to compare stats and similar opponents. Douglass used a long powerful jab to keep tyson at bay and busted him up with uppercuts. Liston was twice the puncher douglass was and way meaner, if he could do it liston has more than a chance of beating tyson.

You cant dismiss douglass as a reference point because tyson was still prime. It was the first time he truly faced adversity as a pro and he was undefeated. What else are we supppsed to go by for a h2h reference? Spinx who was demolished in one round? Tubbs who did nothing and practically dove to the mat and refused to get up as soon as he was grazed? If youre going to discuss liston vs tyson it is not unreasonable to look at the douglass fight. Youre acting like im bringing up the danny williams fight when mike was completely shot.

As for alis 2nd fight with liston, do you really want to open up that can of worms that has been done to death? If youre going to trash listons credibility as a fighter i could easily trash tysons but im not gonna go there.

 

I didnt say holyfield had no chance. Of all tysons opponents he and lewis were the 2 most likely to cause an upset over Ali.

Yes Holyfield was past his prime. Maybe not "washed up" but he had been in brutal wars with foreman, cooper, qawi, and bowe and was in his 30's, not exactly fresh off the market. An Ali who could still use his legs with good stamina would give holyfield all kinds of problems. It wouldnt be one sided either way, both men had too much heart.

 

Love the children who think Tyson was a great fighter and beat great champions in their prime. So sad and at the same time pathetic.

 

Wow. Theirs not to much one can add too this. Perfect.

 

I'll tackle this para by para, if I may. Yes, it's a fact that Bruno and Smith fought to survive against Tyson. Yet, against other top opposition such as Lewis, Witherspoon, Frank, in particular, did very well for over half of the fight. It was only Tyson that put him in that shell.

I said Liston seldom fought anyone who was 210lbs plus and good. You listed eight fighters but that's not quite accurate. We are, in this thread, pitting Tyson against Ali's opponents in the timeline that Ali fought them and vice-versa. When Liston fought Ali in 1964, Sonny had only fought four of the fighters you listed and, outside of Williams, there wasn't much to beat. The other four 200lbs plus guys were faced after the second Ali fight so not relevant to this thread. That's why I asked who he had fought apart from Williams that was any good and weighed around 210lbs. In 1964 or 1965, Sonny had never seen anything remotely like a highly skilled, quick 220lber. He may well have thought that Tyson had a goofy voice and he wouldn't be intimidated. That won't in itself win him the fight.

You've misunderstood me. I should have been clearer. Sorry. I was pitting Ali and Tyson against each other's opponents in the same time frame. Ali fought Sonny in 1964 after three and a half years as a pro. So, therefore Mike has to fight Liston after the same period; three and a half years. Ali, after three and half years, was coming off a narrow points decision win over Doug Jones and had narrowly avoided being embarrassed by Henry Cooper. Tyson, after three and a half years had steamrollered Michael Spinks in one (yes, Spinks was a light heavy originally but so was Marty Marshall), Tony Tubbs who was good enough three years later to give Bowe a tough fight, Biggs, Tucker, Thomas, Smith, Berbick. Which one out of Tyson and Ali three and a half years into their careers do you think would have posed the bigger threat to Liston?

You're absolutely right in saying if Douglas could beat Tyson then Sonny could but the Douglas fight came five years into Tyson's career. So we need to put him in against Ali's opponent when Ali had been pro five years. Sonny again. I know Tyson didn't pull up any trees against Buster but his performance was a whole lot better than how Sonny performed in the Ali rematch.

That's what I was arguing. You have to pit Tyson against the exact same opposition in the exact time frame Ali fought them. Tyson was poor in 1990, five years into his career but he wasn't as poor as the opponent Ali fought five years into his career - Liston (at that point) - so I see Mike staying unbeaten despite his poor form.

And, yes, I brought up the second Ali fight as it is part of Sonny's legacy. Either you believe Sonny who said he was legitimately hurt or you believe that he threw the fight. So part of Sonny's vulnerability at that point in his career was either that he had a glass jaw or that he was prone to deliberately losing. What is irrefutable is that he lost and he lost very badly.

I'm not saying Tyson beats prime Liston. I don't know. But this thread is not pitting any version of Tyson against the Liston of 1958-62. What I am saying is that the Tyson of three and a half years or five years experience - so at the same level of experience as Ali was when he fought Sonny - would have had a very good chance indeed of beating Sonny in 1964 and 1965 and carrying on, unbeaten, through Ali's opposition until his three year layoff.

 

I think Tyson was a great fighter. Youngest ever title holder, reigned for three years and made 9 defences. None too shabby, that, No, he didn't beat a great champion in his prime but outside of Frazier in 71, Ali in 74 and arguably Holyfield in 93, care to tell me which heavyweight champion did?

I am, as it happens, rather 'sad and pathetic', but for many other reasons and not for believing Tyson was a great fighter.

 

Tony Tucker fought well against Tyson.

 

Ali had parkinsons when he fought Berbick! He couldn`t even touch his nose before the Holmes fight. Berbick did much better than Ali against Holmes and even muttered to a furious Larry ''you ain`t Ali!''

 

Tyson would lose to Henry Cooper and Ali wouldn't lose in his prime BC he can dance .

If Ali did lose he would have to have an off night, there's just no one that comes close to his level so ???I guess Holmes.

 

Huge fan of Tyson here but imo he loses to Liston (yes even the '64 version), Frazier, Foreman, Holmes, Lyle, Young, and Quarry. Among others. All these fighters had much superior chins.