My P4P Top 30

I'll be watching/rewatching these fights before I make any other adjustments:

Rigo-Amagasa
Yamanaka-Moreno 1 and 2
Yamanaka-Solis
Yamanaka-Carlson
Santa Cruz-Frampton 2

 

That's better than most media p4p lists. But there's several placements I think many of us can find clearly worse than mine: if you like Rigo no way should he be below Canelo; Inoue below Gonzalez and Thurman; Mikey below those 10-14 guys; Estrada that low; no Spence, Lara, Usyk. However much you might prefer that list for some spots over mine, it's not good enough to be some stick to beat my list with.

 

Spence hasn't done enough? Why isn't beating Brook as good as Santa Cruz beating Frampton? Did you rate Frampton so much better than Brook? Shouldn't we acknowledge Brook's win over Porter and effort against Golovkin? A lot of guys on that list don't have a win as good as Spence's over Brook. Another one I missed: Kovalev is below Stevenson and way too low.

 

Ok, first Roman Gonzalez. I had him top 5 p4p way before most did, but I also never annointed him number 1 when Mayweather retired. I earlier had Rigondeaux and Ward above him, and by then I had Lomachenko above them. He doesn't have the slick defensive skill they do. He's still the best combination puncher in the game, amazing offensive versatility, punches on the move while balancing and positioning himself perfectly. I love him. Not to say his defence is poor, but he depends on positioning more than head movement and reaction, and he gets hit at bit. And his speed of foot doesn't match his handspeed. That's resulted in close fights with Estrada and Cuadras. I think the Sor Rungvisai fight was a robbery, and he looked better against him than against Cuadras. But: Gonzalez's last two fights were closer than a top 5 p4p's fights should be. At the very top dominance matters. Maybe he's aged, maybe he's not quite so great. So I dropped him a couple notches, below Inoue and Garcia.

Inoue is in his prime, is faster, slicker, a better mover, and a harder puncher than Gonzalez, and I'm now confident he'd win if they fought. Mikey Garcia, I've been high on him since before he beat Salido, and have kept him well in my p4p top 10 since then, including through his long inactivity, and I was proved right to stick with him with his precise destruction of Zlaticanin. He's dominated everyone he's fought, and been more impressive when he's stepped up in class.

Crawford, shouldn't be controversial that he's one of the very best p4p. One poster here has him number 1. He has every tool a boxer needs, he's complete. Probably the most versatile boxer out there. Has outboxed (very underrated) boxers in Lundy and Diaz, outslugged a slugger in Molina, and made his toughest challenge in Postol look hapless. Can lead or counter, can box on the back foot or efficiently attack on the front foot, can switch hit. Immaculate balance and footwork, is slick and untouchable, so smart and confident. Is a sharp, vicious puncher. And he looks better every fight. I've actually considered swapping him with Ward. For me, there's a huge gulf between my top 4 and the rest (top 4 being Loma to Crawford after Mayweather as likely temporary part 1)

I took the criticism about Linares. See my response to OvidsExile. Also that response re Canelo. Canelo won rounds, but I thought Lara clearly deserved it, and I think simply proved he's better and would beat him again. And I don't think he uniquely had Canelo's number, as for example I think Lara is proven better than Jacobs, while Jacobs is better than and would beat Canelo. So while in some other p4p comparitive cases like Danny Garcia with Peterson the guy who I thought won at least after other fights doesn't remain higher (largely because of results against common opposition), in this case, just like after Pac-Marquez 2 I always rated Marquez higher I'm not going to rate Canelo above Lara till he beats him decisively, or Lara shows a significant decline in ability. Looking at opposition, Lara's is at least pretty close to Canelo's, and more importantly he's fought top true light middleweights since 2011. We can look at their respective performances against Trout too: Canelo beat him close, Lara put on a dominant masterclass against him. As he hasn't been on my mind lately I took a look at some Lara clips and was reminded just how good he is. I'll slot him a couple notches up, just below Golovkin. Estrada, Spence, GGG, Lara are really close for me, and really interesting to compare. As controversial as it is, I'm saying Spence would beat GGG.

I take your point about Santa Cruz over Frampton. I've been a Frampton admirer and 'like' his style more than Santa Cruz. I was impressed with how Frampton outmaneuvered and outpunched Santa Cruz in the first, amd thought he exposed him as too slow on his feet, and too long and wide with his punches. But Santa Cruz brought his best and really adjusted in the rematch, and beat him more convincingly than Frampton beat him. He used his size perfectly and kept it his fight, kept Frampton at the end of his power and used angles well to avoid standing in front of Frampton. And he should be given props for beating Mares and being at championship level for several years. You're right, he has to be higher.

Sorry, I think Yamanaka is overrated by many. Moreno in their first fight SCHOOLED him, but was robbed. I had Yamanaka above Moreno before that and looked at Moreno as a bit long in the tooth, but Yamanaka was just clueless against a quick, slick, sharp-punching opponent. In the rematch Moreno was outboxing and outpunching him just as easily, till Yamanaka did smartly commit more to attack, and hurt and stopped him. But my takeaway then was that despite finding the power to win Yamanaka showed that he doesn't have the skill of the true p4p elites. Also was dropped against Solis. Great legs, good outside game, knows how to set up that left, has proven himself against several B+/A- boxers over several years, but not a top 10 or even top 15 p4p boxer. Maybe we'll have to disagree about him. I will slot him up a notch higher, above Jermall Charlo.

Pacquiao, I scored the Horn fight 115-113, and think 116-112 makes more sense than Pacquiao winning, though scoring it for Pacquiao close is ok. I think a more confident Horn would win a rematch without controversy. As I can't say Horn is a true elite, neither can I therefore regard Pacquiao as close to elite at this point.

Hope this explains myself, whether I've convinced you or not. Thanks for the feedback. It really forced me to look at several guys more closely.

 

Taking the changes I referred to into account, here's my adjusted p4p. I've added Santa Cruz, and also Gary Russell above him. And, ugh, to make it a round number extended this to 40. Now I'm frustrated and not sure about my new last 10. I do think highly of those guys though. I guess my cut-off means I think Jermell Charlo is proven enough and better than Cotto and Saunders.

1. Mayweather
2. Lomachenko
3. Rigondeaux
4. Ward
5. Crawford
6. Inoue
7. Mikey Garcia
8. Gonzalez
9. Kovalev
10. Estrada
11. Spence
12. Golovkin
13. Lara
14. Usyk
15. Gvozdyk
16. Jacobs
17. Canelo
18. Degale
19. Brook
20. Derevyanchenko
21. Nietes
22. Thurman
23. Beterbiev
24. Linares
25. Yamanaka
26. Jermall Charlo
27. Cuadras
28. Russell
29. Ioka
30. Santa Cruz
31. Frampton
32. Danny Garcia
33. Stevenson
34. Sor Rungvisai
35. Tanaka
36. Briedis
37. Davis
38. Berchelt
39. Peterson
40. Jermell Charlo

 

I think Hunter's performance was overrated a bit. He was tough, was pretty tricky, but he didn't win more than only a couple early rounds and Usyk outdid him in every area and won strongly going away. I also don't think Usyk was quite his best that night and think he's capable of better. His performance was a bit underwhelming, but it'll take more of that for me to change my opinion of him. I definitely won't hold a close WBSS semifinal win over Briedis against Usyk, because I rate Briedis highly.