Harry Greb vs Jack Johnson.

Not quite. An unnamed reporter from the St. Paul Dispatch, which was a different paper than the one Barton worked for, reported that he overheard Greb tell Tunney that he would never fight him again and that Tunney was bigger and hitting harder than ever before. Now, the point is that this may be entirely true, I have no reason to doubt that, BUT you have to take that into context and consider who it was coming from. It wasn't the first or last time Greb said anything like that only to fight the guy again. In fact just six months earlier Greb, speaking to reporters immediately after winning a newspaper decision over Tiger Flowers, gave Flowers a world of credit and in his typical fashion stated that he was henceforth drawing the color line and would refuse to face Flowers because he was so good. Was he being serious or was he, in the parlance of the day, ballyhooing Flowers out of respect? Because within a year and half Greb didn't walk but ran to sign a fight with Flowers in New York when it was ordered by the commission and for which he could have easily ducked with little or no reprisal and then turned around and fought not only him but Allentown Joe Gans within another six months. Likewise less than a year after saying that Tunney was supposedly too big and too strong for him he signed to fight Tunney in Miami only to have Tunney opt out of Greb as an opponent. After Tunney won the HW title and his life story was being printed, already whitewashing his near criminal gift decision in their second fight and his ND loss in the fourth fight as the old myth "after that first fight Tunney came back and beat him every time" Greb was furious and in an admittedly Quixotic quest (Greb had just had one of his eyes removed and was for all intents and purposes retired despite hiding this from the public) publicly challenged Tunney.

Barton for his part called the fight disappointing and made no bones about the fact that Greb was now past his prime and could no longer carry on in the same fashion that he had in the past accounting for his loss to Tunney. He gave the first three rounds to Greb by a wide margin another round a draw, and the rest to Tunney. He attributed this to what he believed was Greb's inability to maintain his cyclonic pace at an advanced age. However, what he didn't know was that Tiger Flowers had cracked or broken one of Greb's ribs in their fight. It had bothered Greb on and off, getting reinjured several times in the ensuing months, and in the fourth round Tunney reinjured it and that accounted for Greb's slowed pace in the later rounds. Typically during this period of his career Greb started slow and picked up the pace as the rounds went on closing very strong. So it was highly unusual to see him fade late even at this juncture. That combined with the fact that he entered with an injured rib and had already beaten the HW version of Tunney over ten rounds just six months earlier lends credence to the argument that A. Tunney didn't beat the best version of Greb and that B. That version of Greb is no indication of how a prime Greb would do against a prime Jack Johnson.

There is no doubt in my mind that Tunney improved every time out from 1922 until he retired. Ive often said that his final fight in 1928 is the most complete performance weve ever seen from him. However, I'm also equally convinced that despite giving Tunney the credit he deserved Greb had no fear of him and believed he could beat him, incorrectly or not, until the day he died. I also believe he would have been more than willing to hazard that belief in the ring. His actions, particularly signing to fight Tunney for a sixth time, leave no real doubt about this. This and the fact that he had already beaten a HW Tunney the year before works against the original point which was that Greb was apparently unsuccessful against a bigger all time great HW boxer. He was disadvantaged, decidedly so at his age and ringwear, but true to Greb form he could find a way to win. Could he do that against Johnson? Stylistically IMO that's a higher mountain to climb because Johnson gave less opportunities for a smaller man using a style that was really poison for most styles. Factor in a size disadvantage and you've got big problems with Johnson.

Think about it like this: Greb isn't knocking Johnson out so he has to outpoint him. In order to outpoint Greb is going to have to be Greb and land dozens of punches a round. Think about Johnsons strength coupled with his size and jab and grab style, uppercuts inside, etc. If he can tie Greb and get away with it Greb is at a huge huge disadvantage. Now you've just taken a very difficult matchup and made it even worse for Greb and that's why you have to favor Johnson. His style is entirely predicated on minimizing the action and he was arguably the best fighter in history at doing just that. If a gun was put to my head and I was forced to bet Id say that Johnson would spoil, grab, and do damage on the inside. Greb would get tied up and have difficulty scoring like he liked. It would eventually settle into a monotonous pattern with Greb trying to attack but getting tied up, Johnson scoring on the inside. On the rare occasions Johnson opens up and flurries Greb's speed, elusiveness, and durability would thwart Johnson's attack and they would return to their waltzing. Essentially Johnson would do Johnson and be comfortable winning a decision and happy not to give Greb anymore opportunities than he had to.

 

Thanks very much for your in depth reply which was very illuminating to me.
The fact that the match is even being discussed speaks volumes for Greb's abilities.

 

Enjoyed the read. Thanks. Essentially Greb likely did say that, to give "Tunney the credit he deserved" as you say, but that doesn't mean he was actually scared to face him or didn't want to. That seems that a reasonable take to me.

 

Good info, great analysis.

Have never seen Greb fight, either in person like McVey did or on video, but having endured Johnson videos, I agree that Johnson would counter Grebs' style of fighting by grabbing him, using his superior weight to tire him out (yes I know Greb had great stamina but he never fought a HW as good as Johnson) and probably knock him out late or simply win a decision.