James Jeffries, first fight 1893, not 1895?

Bloody hell, these Jeffries threads certainly garner some heat amongst the classic forum locals these days, lol! For what it's worth, I fancy Jeff against most in a street brawl. (Umm... Gudetama... It's irrelevant. Finish that beer and go home).

 

They often listed sparrings and exhibitions as real fights though. If you are coming to a sporting club and spar with someone, then list that as a real fight and a win, that may be not a lie, but it's unacceptable all the same.

 

as usual with Jeffries, perhaps more heat than light for the most part. My reaction--

1---we just don't know because as Senya points out, if there were fights for Jeff (or any other beginning fighter) they were probably pretty fly-by-night affairs. Two guys fighting for a winner-take-all purse of a few dollars out in a barn or warehouse somewhere. It was the stone age of boxing in America.

2---my own reaction is that there is no reason to actually doubt Jeffries. He was there and he seems coherent to me. There were no details offered about whom he was fighting in 1893.

3---That no newspaper records were made or kept does not prove to me that such fights might not have been held. Which American newspapers in the 1890's paid reporters to cover obscure fights between unknowns?

4---The bottom line is what exactly would this mean for Jeffries? If he had 20 or so fights before 1896, that only means he was not as inexperienced during his rise to the top as many credit him. That is certainly a two-edged sword as his inexperience is often used as a defense when he struggled or performed below expectations in his early recorded fights.

 

Back from Italy.Dissapointed you are still extant.
Yes Adam confirmed it via email, Steve Compton confirmed it on here ,and Gilbert Odd confirmed it in his autobiography of Fitzsimmons.

 

Got those fights of Jack Johnson and Peter Jackson that you say George Siler refereed yet?

I know he never refereed either of them! I'd bet you whatever you liked but we both know you would welch on the bet ,just as you did on the Fitzsimmons v Choynski bet.

Remember when you said you had seen the Iron Hague v Sam Langford fight and I said you hadn't because it has been out of existence for over 50 years and you are still in your 30's!
Then I said, at the very beginning of the fight ,before they even throw punches ,something strange happened ,something so curious that if you had seen the fight you would have remembered it.I asked you what it was? You never replied, we both know why don't we? You were lying! And, having lied that you had seen the fight, you are now forced to continue lying that you have seen it or admit to your lie !

So I'm still waiting for these Johnson /Jackson fights that Siler refereed.I'm going to keep asking for them on all your threads until you finally admit that he was never the referee for any of their fights.
It's nice to be back exposing and p*ssing on a clown like you!

 

Jeffries never fought Childs or Martin, though Martin challenged him with a guaranteed purse up front.
What is an expiation match? Is it similar to an exhibition match ? Johnson never lost a decision of any sort to Gunboat Smith ,he was knocked into the ropes by him in a sparring session and that is from Smith's own mouth in a taped interview as told to Peter Hauser. Did Vitali Klitschko lose tko decisions to Travis Walker and Alonzo Butler ,because both dropped him in sparring and the sessions were halted? How about when Rocky Marciano was dropped by sparring partner Toxie Hall and packed up for the day ?Was that a tko decision win for Hall?

You are an absolute nonsense!

 

I have never seen any evidence of a Jeffries-Martin fight. When did this supposedly take place? Given Martin's age, it would have had to have been when Jeff was champion. I think this is a bit of an off the wall claim.

And if Jeff did KO a teenage Martin, what would that actually prove? But I don't think it happened.

As for Childs, there is the later newspaper report that Jeff KO'd him. I think this fight might have happened, but I don't think it means much. Childs did well against heavies several years later, but he was always a sub 170 lb. fighter and probably would have been a middle back in the mid-1890's when Jeff would have fought him. Given that Jeff was a huge heavy, I think Childs would have been at best a marginal scalp.

I don't really agree with the criticism that Jeff only had 23 recorded fights and so dismiss him on this factor. The percentage of these fights against the top men of his era is extremely high and his number of tough fights is certainly ballpark with Dempsey, Tunney, Schmeling, and Marciano, and also with Liston and Foreman.

If Jeff had extra fights, which I think plausible, it really doesn't change much in his resume except making his career more like others in that he had the learning fights on the way up that others had before meeting top men.

 

I read somewhere (it definitely wasn't a primary source) that his first fight was with a member of one of those traveling boxing troupes that would take on all comers for money like those chess players at Venice Beach or Central Park.

However he says in some kind of brief filmed interview that his father trained (or at least strongly encouraged) him to be a boxer from an early age.

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Ruhlin moron, and Siler never said he refereed either Jackson or Johnson!

 

Adam Pollack who has written a highly respected biography of Jeffries has traced Jeff's early fistic encounters back to
a scuffle on a beach in1890 with an older, larger boy called Fred Hamilton.
He also says it is alleged that Jeffries beat a black fighter,named Bob Luckett in a street fight the same year .
Pollack next writes.
At around age 17 Jeff might have done some informal boxing at the East Side AC in East Side L A.

Pollack has a heading next that reads 1893-1895? ? Hank Griffin Los Angeles C.A. ko13,14,or15?

 

No you are wrong! Siler first saw Johnson in battle royals, but he never refereed him in any, in fact he never refereed any battle royals ! Siler never refereed either Johnson or Jackson and his entire refereeing record is on Box Rec for anyone to confirm that fact! Ive posted it here 3 times and you insisting he did won't alter the fact that he didn't!
I suppose when you lie as often as you do the truth becomes harder and harder to recognize!
On the Ruhlin v Fitzsimmons fight. Fitz brought his own gloves and asked Billy Madden if he could wear them because he had a small broken bone in his left hand that had not healed properly from koing Ed Dunkhorst.He wore pink tights a present from his wife,the fight began at10pm and the gate receipts were $33,000,tickets went from$3 to $12 and 12000 spectators attended.Let me know if you want the names of the seconds.lol

" It had been intended to take a cinematograph version of the Fitzsimmons v Ruhlin contest ,but because of a technical breakdown ,nothing materialized .It was therefore proposed that the two men should go through the motions in a day or so's time so that a fake film could be made,as had been done for earlier fights when there had been a machine failure,something that could be done with impunity in the early dys of moving pictures.
While Fitzsimmons was ready for a replay,his facial disfigurements,being easily hidden under greasepaint,it was a different matter with Ruhlin.
He was in such a weak physical state at the end of the contest that it had been found necessary to put him to bed in the "Garden",where he remained all night.
The following day he was taken to Billy Madden's cottage in South Brooklyn where he stayed for several days before being fit enough to face the cameras.
The fight film was shown to enthusiastic audiences thoughout America and England until some one spotted the fraud by pointing out the absence of Jim Corbett from Ruhlin's corner.
Gentleman Jim had returned home to San Francisco and would not come back to New York ,nor did he wish to be
involved in the ' fake'.He had been so obviously active throughout the contest that his non-appearance in the moving picture of the fight proved beyond doubt that it was spurious."
Pages 160 &161 "The Fighting Black Smith" by Gilbert Odd. It's great that you keep pretending the actual fight was filmed as a justification for reneging on our wager.
It just reinforces what a disgusting piece of human sewage you are , no principles, no honour, and definitely no shame! Do you know, the word FRAUD epitomizes you!

Here's my original post proving it wasn't filmed.

And again I cite this as conclusive proof the real fight was not filmed.Kindly provided byAdam Pollack , the very respected author of boxing biographies on the heavyweight champions ,[including one on Fitzsimmons].
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...filmed&f=false
Page 122 gives the relevant information.
I quote.
"Although the leading vaudeville agent William Morris and major exhibitors such as Oscar Hammerstein booked the Fitzsimmons and Ruhlin Fight Pictures for several weeks in August and September the fight in the Garden was not what the pictures showed .
Instead the supposedly authentic film was actually taken by Lubin.
The difference with the reproduction however was that the original participants travelled to Philadelphia immediately after the bout to re-enact the 6 rounds contest themselves.
The screen presence of the real Fitzsimmons and Ruhlin allowed Lubin's fake to pass off as legitimate." And he is your reply where you weasel out of honouring the bet by saying the bet was was the fight filmed.Not when.


"Yes, it was filmed. This was proven. Geez..

The bet was if it was filmed period. No strings attached as to how or when it was filmed. You lost, and true to character refuse to honor it."

You counted the re-enactment over a week later as the fight and used that as an excuse not to honour the wager,now everyone can see what a despicable lying wretch you are!
This is your statement from the Jackson v Johnson thread.

"The authority figure here is George Siler, the referee for both of them on more than one occasion, a boxing author, and noted observer of the times."
Its a flat out lie!
I've asked you several times to name the fights of either that he refereed you can't because he didn't.

I challenge you to produce one now!