Sonny Liston, head to head GOAT

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by BrutalForeman, May 11, 2017.



  1. Birmingham

    Birmingham Boxing Junkie banned Full Member

    9,076
    6,776
    Jan 13, 2017
    I didn't think it was an opinion to be fair, I thought it was fact that the World Heavyweight Champion was the King of all sports and recognised as such
     
  2. cuchulain

    cuchulain VIP Member Full Member

    33,049
    8,013
    Jan 6, 2007
    This is factually incorrect.

    Liston appears on nearly every top ten ATG lists I've ever seen.
     
    swagdelfadeel likes this.
  3. Gudetama

    Gudetama Active Member Full Member

    1,000
    865
    Sep 11, 2017
    I would have Liston beating all on that list, aside from Ali. And all aside from Holmes and possibly Vitaki by KO. Each to their own, though.
     
    swagdelfadeel likes this.
  4. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

    108,011
    38,444
    Mar 21, 2007
    Well it very obviously isn't now.

    You probably mean it used to be.

    But that isn't the question. The question is whether or not a heavyweight (Liston) should be "punished" in terms of historical standing, more heavily than a welterweight (Duran) for quitting; in other words that it is worse for a heavyweight to quit than a fighter in another weight class.

    That is an opinion, and it's a ludicrous one.
     
    Mr.DagoWop and Nighttrain like this.
  5. BCS8

    BCS8 VIP Member Full Member

    51,551
    63,485
    Aug 21, 2012
    o_O With or without Liston's magic glove ointment?
     
    Gudetama likes this.
  6. The Kentucky Cobra

    The Kentucky Cobra Boxing Addict banned Full Member

    3,576
    2,449
    Jan 9, 2017
    You got to love the logic on this board sometimes...

    Liston's best win is against a man that was 25 pounds lighter and at a significant reach disadvantage. So hes the H2H monster with the modern Powah to knock out the super heavies.

    Marciano, Louis, and Lanford knocked out class fighters that were 30+ pounds heavier but...they are the ones with the overrated power that couldnt handle bigger men.
     
  7. BCS8

    BCS8 VIP Member Full Member

    51,551
    63,485
    Aug 21, 2012
    That's why I don't get into these arguments too often. Somebody that thinks he only loses to Ali will be difficult to reason with.
     
    InMemoryofJakeLamotta likes this.
  8. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

    27,511
    7,384
    Dec 31, 2009
    You must not have seen a single authentic top ten list by a magazine published BEFORE the Liston renaissance (around the 1980s that came about after the people who saw Sonny began to die off) since the adults who had witnessed more than a few champions before Liston did not rate him in the top ten at all. Not one bit. Seems like Sonny got a listing only once the schoolboys from the 1960s grew into boxing authorities.

    Nat Fleischer, Founder of Ring Magazine, 1971.


    Jack Johnson
    Jim Jeffries
    Bob Fitzsimmons
    Jack Dempsey
    Jim Corbett
    Joe Louis
    Sam Langford
    Gene Tunney
    Max Schemling
    Rocky Marciano



    Charley Rose, 1968


    Sam Langford
    Jack Johnson
    Jack Dempsey
    Joe Louis
    Jim Jeffries
    Gene Tunney
    Sam McVey
    Rocky Marciano
    Jim Corbett
    Max Baer

    Nat Loubet, 1975


    Joe Louis
    Jack Dempsey
    Jim Jeffries
    Jack Johnson
    Rocky Marciano
    Gene Tunney
    Bob Fitzsimmons
    James J. Corbett
    Muhammad Ali
    Joe Frazier

    John Durant -Author of "The Heavyweight Champions" (1976)


    Joe Louis
    Jack Johnson
    Jack Dempsey
    Muhammad Ali
    Gene Tunney
    Joe Frazier
    Jim Jeffries
    James J. Corbett
    Rocky Marciano
    Max Schmeling

    Bill Brennan 1978 (Former President of the WBA)


    Muhammad Ali
    Joe Louis
    Jack Dempsey
    Jack Johnson
    Gene Tunney
    Jim Jeffries
    Max Schemeling
    Rocky Marciano
    James J. Corebett
    Bob Fitzsimmons
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2017
    The Morlocks, Gudetama and louis54 like this.
  9. JoffJoff

    JoffJoff Regular Junkie Full Member

    1,978
    1,495
    Jan 25, 2017
    :jaja-no:
     
  10. BrutalForeman

    BrutalForeman Active Member Full Member

    701
    297
    May 17, 2014
    Of course. But almost any great fighter is underrated until they have been retired for some time.

    Sonny is hated for his personality, coldness, being a criminal and his past prime performance.

    I'm rating the prime fighter, not his character.
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2017
  11. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

    27,511
    7,384
    Dec 31, 2009
    But Sonny was unranked as an ATG top ten HW for over a decade after losing the title. Other champions, less thought of now by the internet generation, registered in top ten rankings much closer to their retirement than Sonny did. It seems Listons ATG appeal was very slow burning to register. It gained no real support until much much later. I think it is significant to hold on to where the adult boxing aficionados rated Sonny closer to the era Liston fought in.

    Sonnys prowess is based on the eye test in winning easier fights on paper, blow outs. It is a very thin resume compared to other champions who were a top ten lock for many years before Sonny eventually began to register.
     
    louis54 likes this.
  12. BrutalForeman

    BrutalForeman Active Member Full Member

    701
    297
    May 17, 2014
    I edited and expanded on my explanation a couple posts above.
     
  13. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

    27,511
    7,384
    Dec 31, 2009
    So this is another excuse. "Sonny is hated for his coldness, personality and being a criminal" what about Jack Johnson? I don't believe Jack Johnsons high ranking for most of the last century was based on his warm personality and being of high moral fibre. What ever Johnson was it never effected his ATG rating. And he came before Sonny Liston!

    There is a very long list of excuses of why Sonny should rank higher than he did during era that preceded his career. He did not feature. Why was this?
     
  14. BrutalForeman

    BrutalForeman Active Member Full Member

    701
    297
    May 17, 2014
    It is the truth

    The guy was reserved, cold and had little charisma.

    Ali was a loudmouth who recited bad poetry. So his post prime stinkers are ignored
     
    BCS8 likes this.
  15. Perry

    Perry Boxing Junkie Full Member

    9,343
    1,512
    Apr 26, 2015
    I've been involved with boxing since 1971.....you?
     
    louis54 likes this.