GGG is - at the very least - the Greatest middleweight since Hagler

Toney, Nunn, Jones, Taylor, Pavlik, Martinez have all beaten *better* opposition @ 160. Quality is over quantity...

 

Taylor has 2 close wins vs Hopkins he may be ahead of GGG but it's close. Pavlik has a KO and a close win vs Taylor that's also not that much ahead of Golovkin considering he lost vs Martinez.

Martinez hasn't beaten better opposition @160 Pavlik is his only big name.

Golovkin has wins vs Ouma, Jacobs, Murray, Macklin, Geale and the Canelo fight is considered has a Golovkin win too

 

I think you're imagining things, are you sure you don't have me confused me with someone else? Prove it, show us where the post was where I supposedly said "Canelo" could clean up Hagler and Monzon.

 

You have some kind of an imagination.

 

All I said was 8-4 could be seen as close or not close depending on how close the rounds were. And lets get it straight : you were the one who's been arguing that the fight was not close. I recognized that the fight was close, but I still saw it as a relatively clear CA victory. (close but clear) I mean we both essentially had it 8-4 for each fighter, you for TG and me for CA. I thought rounds 1-3 & 10-12 were pretty clear for CA, you disputed that with round 2 & 10 or 11 (which you couldn't remember which one) rounds that all 3 judges gave to CA and seemed pretty clear CA rounds to me. That's 6 rounds to Canelo which are pretty consistent with rounds that most people had for CA. (Round 3 some people like 2 judges gave to G) All I'm saying is I recognized that I could see how a someone could have it 7-5 or 8-4 G if you give a round like Round 3 to G, and if you prefer volume I could see rounds like 4,5,8,9 going to G to where you can arrive at 7-5 or 8-4 TG.

But for me, I had 1-3 & 10-12 to Canelo, and I saw rounds 4,5,8 & 9 as toss ups so if you split those you get 8-4 to Canelo. If you give all those to G which is arguable (a stretch in my opinion but arguable) you get 6-6. That's where we differ and you've done nothing to explain how G won rounds like 2, 10, or 11.

 

Would you rather have one 5 carat diamond worth $2M or twenty 2 carat diamonds worth $10M? Quality is over Quantity when they are one offs....in Boxing it’s no different than the analogy I used. Longevity, consistency, dominance and accomplishments are all part of the metrics used to weight out historical status

 

No need to reiterate shadow. My position hasn’t changed nor will it. The fight was not close. You position is “it was close, yet relatively clear for Canelo”. Lol. That to me is like you straddling the fence in an attempt not to come off like an unreasonable fanboy. Either you think it’s a clear win for Alvarez or it was close? I could honestly care less how you try to validate your opaque position...It really makes no difference at the end of the day. It was competitive, but Golovkin clearly won. It’s not really a debate to be honest. All the polls are so consistent and the feedback of those who weighed in as well. It all proves one thing...GGG clearly beat Alvarez. I can only lead a horse to water....whether or not the horse chooses to drink is out of my control.

 

If the horse doesnt drink water it could have rabies.

 

Or, put out of its misery

 

Why does it have to be an either or? Have you never seen a fight where you've determined that a fighter won by a round or two but recognized that it was a close fight?

I thought Canelo won by several rounds, but I'm open-minded to those who thought TG won some of those close rounds. You on the other hand aren't, which shows your bias and have demonstrated that you are unwilling to accept opposing viewpoints from your own. You're showing yourself to be very closed-minded when it comes to discussing this fight. Unlike you, I've shown that I'm unbiased enough to recognize how close the fight was. There's plenty of fans out there that have admitted that it's a close fight or that they had Canelo winning, just take a look at the comments on the Scene poll you posted. You're obviously not one of them.

 

Close defined:
(with reference to a competitive situation) won or likely to be won by only a small amount or distance.

Decisive/Clear defined:
having or feeling no doubt or confusion.

It’s not one or the other. If it’s decisive, it’s clear cut...if it’s close, it’s a small margin separating who won vs who lost. Like I said before, this stuff is not complex...this fight wasn’t complicated. It was easy to score and clear in terms of the action that was produced inside the ring. That’s why there’s an overwhelming consensus leaning one way and not a more even split amongst the fans.

I’m all about being open minded and listening to opposing views but within reason. If the suns out and the heat is searing yet you tell me it’s cold...I’ll give you respect to hear you out, but once you start trying to argue that it’s NOT hot...I automatically realize the kind of person I’m dealing with.

I’m not arguing that “plenty” of fans had it close or a close win for Alvarez....but “plenty” has to be used with the right context. Again, it’s completely one sided for those who thought it was close vs those who thought it was a clear win for GGG. Given the millions of people who witnessed the bout, “plenty” is an acceptable adverb...it’s just a drop in the bucket when you look at this from 30,000 feet.

 

You're not looking at this from 30,000 feet through. You're closing your eyes and are imagining yourself hovering above the clouds at 30,000 feet, but in reality you're at home sitting in front of a computer. You're visualizing what you believe it's like from 30,000 feet, but you don't actually know what's it's like up there since you're not actually there.

I concur that the online polls indicate that way more people had Gennady winning than they had Canelo winning. But those polls don't say anything about how close those people thought the fight was, which is what you're arguing. I think a lot of those numbers have to do with the fact that so many have been convinced that Canelo has received favorable judging in the past, prefer come forward fighters, are causals and don't appreciate the finer points of boxing, are outraged by Byrd's card, etc. I think those factors have to do with a lot of why those numbers are so heavily in Gennady's favor. Another factor that seems to influence how the public views the fight is that as they are watching the fight, they see Harold Lederman's card pop on the screen and every few rounds have to hear his high-pitched explanations of why he's winning, Harold's high-pitched shrieks enter the brain of fans that watch the fight and it influences people and leads many to believe that the fighter Harold Lederman says is winning is really winning.

Naturally if you see a round by round score showing one guy winning by several rounds, then a judge comes out with a score in the complete opposite direciton, that type of a thing is naturally going to seen by a lot of people as controversial. I try not to get caught up in all that stuff, I try to block out all the noise (Lederman, etc) and just pay more attention to the punches that are landed and the body language of the fighters, but I don't think most boxing fans who vote in that polls give a fight that much attention to detail and most fans don't pay attention to the finer points of boxing, most people just seem to go with the flow and have a tendency to echo the popular spoon-fed view of the fight more often than not.

 

Lol....I guess metaphors aren’t available in “Boxing guru” classes. It’s not worth the energy explaining what I meant by that. I’ll just leave metaphoric references out in our conversations.

Out of the consensus, almost half had 8-4 cards. Of course you already said that’s not a clear win in your mind based on all the rhetoric you went into with Your rationale. 8-4 is clear and decisive for the majority of people. It’s like a challenger winning the first 8 rounds and the champion winning the championship rounds and losing the title on points. It’s a clear loss for the champion regardless of winning the last 4 rounds....baring any knock downs or point deductions the last quarter of the fight

 

Lol I know you're big on metaphors, from leading horses to water to likening the plenty of people that had Canelo winning or it a close fight to a "drop in the bocket" from 30,000 feet. But please keep them coming, it adds some much needed humor to your posts to go right along with your more substantive points. It's not that I "didn't get" the metaphor, I'm just pointing out that you're using metaphors as a means to paint a picture of something that's based on your own belief, not necessarily reality. As I pointed out, all of those 90%/10% polls where fans voted on who they thought won, we don't know what those people thought about the closeness of the bout, so in reality it's far more than a drop in the bucket who will admit that it was a close fight. Case in point, the comment section to the Scene poll you posted. How many of those comments stated it was a clear decisive win for Gennady? Far more people were arguging that it was a close fight or a Canelo win. (notice how you didn't even mention those posts from the poll that you shared, hrmm I wonder why lol)

Once again, here you're visualizing what you are projecting 8-4 as. You're giving your own scenario of what you describe 8-4 as which may or may not be what those who voted 8-4 thought as to whether they'd describe it as close.

Even if all those 8-4s are clear and decisive, in that Scene poll, when you add those with the 6 that had it 9-3 for G, that's not still an overwhelming majority, but simply only a slight majority. (~53%?) Lets say we estimate that the majority (i.e. 75%) of those who had it 8-4 thought it wasn't close, then you'd have less than 50% overall that didn't think it was close. Any way you slice it, it doesn't indicate that it's the overwhelming majority that you claim. Frankly, you're reaching making that argument and I'm calling you out on it. In the media & fighter scorecards, I gave you all the 8-4s as clear decisive TG wins just to give you every advantage and still it didn't come close to 50% in regard to those that didn't have it close.

I'd estimate that there's a good amount of folks like yourself out there that saw it as a clear decisive TG win. Maybe more than a drop in the bucket, but that there's far more people who would agree that it was a close fight. (or more accurately - not a clear & decisive win for TG as you are claiming)

And frankly, even those like yourself that saw TG winning pretty clearly and decisively, amongst those people they're not all like you who are so unwilling to reason with in not accepting how somebody else could reasonably have Canelo winning. You yourself had it 7-5 initially, and only after watching it again decided it was actually 8-4. Well that indicates that when watching it live, inebriated or not, watching it with Alvarez fans or not, you concluded that it was pretty darn close. You just have lets just say a unique view of the fight where you see it as such an undebatably decisive TG win that there's absolutely no wiggle room from your score, and you can't so much as admit that there were any close rounds practically for example. You giving Gennady round 2 for example, that puts you in the minority on that Round but yet you act like it's so obvious and you're in the majority on that round and you haven't so much as explained yourself. Most people had 10,11 & 12 for Alvarez and you act like you were being so nice and generous for giving Alvarez the 12th, you can't decide which of the 10th & 11th you gave Alvarez but you're so sure that sure Alvarez didn't win them both lol despite most fans I've heard and all 3 judges having it that way. (Even those that gave G the 10th or 11th as much of a stretch as that is would surely admit those rounds were close, which you don't or haven't yet lol)

It's truly fascinating to hear you make these types of arguments and being so unwilling to budge from your belief that all these rounds were so easy to score and thus the fight wasn't close. It's like you're living in a parallel universe when it comes to these rounds which are so crucial to the verdict. Then there's 4,5,8,&9 which you gave all those rounds to G but can't even admit that some of them were close? It just seems like you're unwilling to take a close hard look at rounds like 2,4,5,8,9,10 and/or 11 and concede that these were close rounds. You gave them all (at one point at least) to TG which is ridiculous to me, but it is what it is. You're not backing down from your hard-line stance on these rounds, but a more reasonable fan would have the courtesy to admit that at the very least these rounds were close and / or hard to score when discussing the scoring particulars.

 

I stand corrected. “Boxing guru” school did teach you metaphors. Lol. Impressive. The fact that you completely dismiss the hard numbers and consistency across numerous polls, outlets and statements amongst those who have provided their views only exposes your agenda.

Like there are a small number of people polled who thought Alvarez won, there are also a small portion of Alvarez fans who posted to defend the draw or make the claim Canelo won. Ultimately it’s a pittance compared to collective.

Another metaphor....you can’t see the trees through the forest man. Lol. That....or you refuse to acknowledge what’s right there in front of you. If 80+% of the overall audience that runs into the millions ALL had GGG winning....that’s CLEARLY indicative of Golovkin winning. That leaves 20% that either had it close enough to be ok with the draw or an Alvarez win.

Considering that many of those fans that make up that small allowance are pro Canelo fans, it’s likely their account of the fight is biased. Basically I am insinuating if people weren’t biased that number would be closer to 100% who had GGG winning.

The 8-4 card was the majority for those who had GGG winning. That’s clear and decisive....So is 80+%. There were 3, maybe 4 rounds Alvarez did better to make it close. Give all of those rounds to Canelo...he still lost 8 or 9 rounds conclusively.