Are Charles and Walcott better than Patterson?

Patts comfortably makes my top 20 (possibly top 15). First guy to to regain title, youngest ever linear champ, solid resume, great combo of speed/power/skill. ATG fighter. Ali says Patterson was the most skilled fighter he ever fought! Don't think Chuck and Walcott are quite up to par.

 

At heavy Floyd no contest; Ezz maybe best ATG LH. With eras considered, Jersey Joe comes us short IMO.

 

Depends what you mean.

In terms of resume you can make a strong argument, but head to head, I rate those two a bit higher.

 

I'm referring to ATG rankings. H2H doesn't come into this.

 

I rate him higher than the other two. Also think he's beast Charles. Walcott might beat him though.

 

Aren't you the one who was criticising Patterson quite badly in the other thread?
You got 2 different personalities?

 

Patterson is a bit fragile compared to those two.

 

I voted equal overall.

Apart from the nights Floyd turned up with a disguise in his gym bag Patterson was never a bad fighter. Not even in the end. I think pound for pound Patterson is pretty underrated.

I don’t think he ever could perform against Sonny Liston though. He never turned up for those fights, just mentally could not hold it together enough to do himself justice with that one man. The rest of his career however, Floyd was a great fighter.

I am certain Walcott and Charles would do a lot better against Liston. both Walcott and Charles could feasibly beat Sonny on their best night. psychologically they would hold up and at least perform.

Is that enough to put Charles and Walcott over Floyd? I’m not sure that would be fair because it was only one guy and it was after the Ingo trilogy and making history as the youngest undisputed champion.

 

I believe Charles and Walcott were better.

 

Kudos McGrain! Love it.

 

I thought he only packed the disguise kit for the Liston fights? it is my opinion Floyd expected to wear the kit after he fought Sonny. Floyd was a brave man with the heart of a lion but I think Sonny just had a hex over him. I believe Floyd knew he just could not discourage Sonny and Sonny knew it too. You can train hard you convince yourself right until the bell goes. But guys like Sonny they just know if their is doubt in the other mans head. Nothing will stop them. It’s like oil on fire.

well this is true. But nobody starts a fight with their face already smashed in do they? Sonny never had easier fights in his life did he? Sonny was darn good both times but was that because he knew he had Floyd where he wanted him? Howard King was not a better man than Floyd Patterson. Nor was Zora Foley. They had their moments with Sonny. They offered resistance. This is no excuse for Floyd. Sonny took care of business. Just like he should have.

I have studied both fights. In my opinion Floyd was nervous both times. Not Sonnys fault.

I know Floyd often fought with fear and walked a tightrope with anxiety, often to his favour but it just didn’t work on Sonny. Not in my opinion. He just could not turn it around and nor would Sonny let him. Liston was a Hunter. I think Liston needed to be psychologically discouraged. But I think Floyd was unable to install an aura worth respecting. I don’t think he was giving the kind of vibe to make Sonny cautious. Therefore nothing would allow Floyd a foothold, psychologically, to get started both times. Didn’t work. Was not happening. In my opinion.

 

if I thought incorrectly then I still stand by what I said about Floyds expectation. He must have felt more expectation to wear the kit than usual. Do you think Radmacher gave Floyd the same threat?

I have defended my opinion. Each and every time. In my opinion Floyd showed no fire. It’s body language. He gave off the same vibes in fights he won -I know this. But Sonny was the wrong man to give off those vibes too. Sonny was a wolf.

I don’t know what you want from me. I can go watch the films again and show you points or moments that I pick up on that are hard to describe where I believe Floyd freezes . And it will actually boil down to Sonny being the wrong man for the frame of mind I believe Patterson was in for both fights. I am not a psychologist, I don’t think it is a unique view among fight people either. Floyd could not prevent the signals Sonny received. Liston fed off them.

Floyd never could beat sonny. He always wanted to though. But it was because he needed to confront his demons.