Fleischer, on ranking SRR behind Ketchel, Ryan, Greb and Walker

Let the shrieking commence.

 

This was in 59, we have had quite a few champs since then.Tiger,Monzon ,Hagler,Hopkins.I'd place Greb above SRR and put Monzon with him and maybe Hagler one step down from Ray.Ketchel, Ryan,Walker below Ray. But its only an opinion at the end of the day.

 

Just my opinion...
1 Greb
2 Robinson
3 Ketchel
4 Monzon
5 Hagler
I'd have Walker a couple of places below, and Ryan about ten places below these five guys.

 

Ketchel has to be the most over rated old timer. He looks pretty poor the only two films we have to judge. No concept of defense at all. Essentially a crude slugger type who didn't have a long career. But he's #1? LOL.

SRR would have a field day here.

 

What a load of complete horsesh*t.

Regarding Tommy Ryan.. "He fought them all, from the lowly to the greatest, something Ray never had to face. "

Robinson fought and defeated LaMotta, Gavilan, Abrams, Armstrong, Zivic, Angott, Olson, Turpin, Fullmer, Basilio... but I guess that doesn't beat Billy Smith and Dave Berry.

 

Ryan beat Mysterious Billy Smith and The Real McCoy, top 10 P4P names if ever there was such a thing

 

Ketchel looks like a toughman competitor on film. Phil Baroni would beat him in a straight up boxing match.

 

Really? And yes, I am well schooled on who they were. Now, can I see your Top 10 P4P?

I wouldn't rate Smith over LaMotta or even Fullmer at middleweight... let along P4P.

 

There are a lot of reasons to commend Fleischer for his contribution to boxing.

His ability to objectively analyse and rank fighters across eras certainly isn't one of them though.

 

I said top P4P names, not top 10 P4P boxers. What boxer had a cooler name than Mysterious Billy Smith? Probably only that 3K battery guy. Boxers of today can't hold a candle to those of yesteryear in terms of the their names. Daroll "Doin' Damage" Wilson was one of the few who stands up to names like the Real McCoy. Hell, the 2000s was such a low point in boxing we briefly had "Goofi" whitaker.

 

Hah! You got me on that one.

 

If only there was some film of Greb then no one could dispute how superior he was to Ray Leonard. Hell, the only middleweight in history who could have beaten Greb is Tom Sayers. You can see how well he moved just from those old woodcuts.

 

Ryan is an underrated boxer, by all accounts very skilled. He often fought bigger men and beat them. He was only defeated twice in 99 fights.

IMO Ryan deserves credit for offering a color line fight in 1899 vs. Frank Craig ( Ryan's middleweight title on the line ) and fought heavyweights.

Now I'm not saying SRR should not be highly rated, but there is an undercurrent some boxing people who thought he avoided the top African American talent of the times, and when he finally fought a good black in Turpin, what happened? He lost..twice.

How would Sugar Ray Robinson vs Charley Burley, Holman Williams, Cocoa Kid, Eddie Booker, and Tony Zale played out? We'll never know, he didn't fight any of them. I'm not sure but maybe he could have fought Charles at middle weight? Hence the theory he was a bit of a protected fighter.

No less authority than Ray Arcel and Manny Steward believe that he was somewhat protected. Maybe they are correct, doesn't take away from his brilliance on film though.

 

"Charley Burley, Holman Williams, Cocoa Kid, Eddie Booker, and Tony Zale."

None of these men were in Robinson's weight class, at least for long, except for the Cocoa Kid. Robinson started as a basically a lightweight. When he fought Angott both men were at 137. When he fought Zivic, Sugar Ray weighed 139 and was giving up 7 lbs. Burley and Williams were rated at welter in 1941 but almost immediately moved up to middle. Only the Cocoa Kid was rated during the war years at welter, but behind Armstrong and Wilson whom Robinson did fight.

What you are asking is that Robinson be thrown in against heavier men when he was in his early twenties and before he had really gotten into the big time.

Charles is especially idiotic. He rarely made even 160, although the Ring rated him at middle, and he was rated at light-heavy as early as 1943, when Robinson was rated at welter. Robinson could have been expected to give up 20 lbs. or so in such a fight. Robinson wasn't really protected. It was just that he was well-managed enough to avoid gross size mismatches. (and this might not have been true of other black fighters, but wrongs done to them doesn't justify expecting wrongs to have been done to Robinson)

Tony Zale? Zale was a middle who went in the army. When could they have fought? After the war Zale fought a lucrative trilogy with Graziano, whom Robinson later stopped easily. I don't really see a point in bringing up Zale when Robinson was instead fighting the equally tough LaMotta despite giving away 10 to 15 lbs.