Who was the least skillfull champion

Did Alfredo Angulo ever pick up a trinket? I can't recall and am too unabashedly lazy to even check.

 

Wait, Ruiz had to play act to squeak by Jimmy Thunder, in what I imagine wasn't Thunder's prime anyway?

That's pretty dire if true.

 

Carlos Baldomir....

 

Satoshi Shingaki ....

 

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Still lost by Wills, your only point is it was possible for a black man to be well managed? I mean I want to believe you've something with a little more thought behind it because that's incredibly short sighted. Of course some guys were able to do well, JJ had broken the colorline some twenty years prior after all. That doesn't change the fact that the colorline kept the black fighters from flooding title contention.

Let's remember the colorline was an informal thing. It was the whites refusing to do their jobs if it meant blacks improving. "champion's discretion" and "bad management" are the colorline. That's why Jack couldn't end it, he wasn't a big enough entity on his own.

All you're doing is justifying the colorline. Most black fighters didn't push for a title they were not allowed to own. Most managers, Feab's included, were racists and didn't really look out for the best interest of their fighters. I did site the colorline as the primary culprit, all you're doing is filling in the details while pointing to one of the few exceptions as if any of that negates or detracts from the difficulties of being a black fighter pre Louis.

Do you mean to tell me without the colorline George would have faced the same difficulties?

Furthermore, I fail to see how any of this one way or another reflects skill level.

As far as rank I dunno what you're talking about. George is highly rated from Dempsey through Baer especially in Europe. He does win the IBU after all...in 1935.

I don't understand the point in pointing out Primo's a European rank fighter. They're all European fighters. I don't mean by birth obviously, but they fought each other because they're IBU fighters. Both George and Primo would go on to grab the IBU title.

The remainder is just more of the assertion that Primo got better while George didn't. Ok let's drop the Gains triangle theory. Why is it you believe Godfrey was going downhill? Point to a period when George Godfrey was had a better w/l ratio or was fighting higher ranked fighters. It's literally the height of the dude's career you're claiming he's going downhill during. If you simply believe Primo was better that's something I can't really argue against, but the idea that George was on the slide I do take issue with.

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It's like saying Wlad got worse after Manny became his trainer; if that's really how you feel okay, I don't mean to disrespect you, I just can not for the life of me figure out how you can see it that way.

Lee's not actually mentioned at all during Kevin's rendition of George's career. I forgot George's handler's name, if you like I'll freshen up and find it for you. It's entirely possible this time Primo and his team didn't know of any fix as quite a lot of colorline fighter's fights are fixed by the betting element not their opponent. So it could have easily been a fix between George's manager and a bookey or some such. Again if you're interested I'll look at it again and make a thread about it. That said I think you've missed the point. No one but no one claims Primo was at any time winning that fight. We're talking about skill level here not who wins between these two or who deserves to be champion....though I do think George would have been champ if not Gains, but in the name of keeping it to one subject at a time I just want to remind you for my point the fix doesn't have to be a fix he could legit be DQ'd and now all you're saying is Primo got beaten pillar to post but isn't the lesser boxer because he got saved by the ref.

If George's low blows are genuine I doubt it's from anger so much as stamina. George was like Primo, friggin huge, he's not really criticized for being too aggressive he's criticized for being lazy. I'd believe he got himself DQ to take a seat before I believed he did it out of anger or malice. That just isn't Feab's attitude at all. Or maybe it is I dunno for sure I've only read two books by one author so I'm still very open to different viewpoints but from what I know of him anger or even excitement of any form wouldn't be his motivation.

Then suppose a better timeline.

Godfrey was far past it when he was winning more than ever against the toughest comp of his career?

Gains was past it in by 33? Amazing that he went on a 17 fight win streak between 36 and 38.

You didn't and haven't claimed that Primo was simply better, that George fought him of an off night, or that Primo simply got better. You've pinned your entire assessment on the idea that Godfrey and Gains were on the slide while both men in every metric I can measure were enjoying the peak of their success. So I have to wonder when then was Feab Smith better than he was in the mid 30s? When was Gains better than when he was beating the best HWs of the era?

It may pain you to admit it but the truth is Primo just was not very good. He got shown up by the colored champions then he fought the same caliber opponent as they and that earned him a title shot against a man whose own claim to the title was in such contest boxing experts were banned from reporting on future matches, beat two no hopers, one of which also beaten by Godfrey, then drops his title to the first guy with a pulse who, like Primo and Sharkey, never deserved the title and only won it because of the colorline until Louis was able to get around that nonsense.

When Primo and Max had just gotten their asses kicked by Louis that's when Godfrey wins his IBU. Because the IBU believed he was good enough to dispute Joe's status. The only reason Godfrey is not also considered HW champion in 35 along with Louis is because he didn't pay sanctioning fees, but of course skill wise he was basically shot right?

 

Yeah, he ham acted to draw a crucial "low blow" call, in the eighth round as I recall - in addition to pulling his usual excessive holding shenanigans.

Ruiz never legitimately won a fight against rated fighters without SOME kind of cheating. He didn't have the ability to, which is why he belongs on the TOP of this list.

 

I am not defending the color line in any way shape or form.

What I am saying is that a champion's duty is to fight the most qualified contender, not the most dangerous contender, or the contender who has been least fairly managed.

Wills was owed a title shot, while Godfrey was nothing more than a reasonable choice for a title challenger.

George Godfrey's highest end of year ranking was in 1928, when he finished #2 behind Young Stribling. He slipped to #3 in 1929, and #5 in 1930. He did not make the end of year rankings the subsequent year.

Primo Carnera starts to appear in the rankings around the time that Godfrey drops out of them, and wins the title three years later. Most of his best wins occur between 1932 and 1935.

If Godfrey was cheated out of his chance at the title, then it was not Carnera's fault.

A much more realistic scenario, would have been that he was given a place in the elimination tournament, that was held to find a replacement for Tunney as champion.

Do I think that the fight between Godfrey and Carnera was suspicious?

Certainly.

It is not impossible however, that Godfrey was frustrated by his failure to put Carnera away, and fouled him out of frustration.

If that is the case, then it is a straight up win for Carnera.

 

George Foremen