John L. Sullivan, American Icon Myth ?

Great question and I am glad their are other reasonable posters who can look at the evidence available and question the extensive and dramatic descriptions noted for the era.

 

Firstly, upon what are you basing these records of his opponents? In my research I have found wildly differing numbers on fighters from this era. Boxrec, bless its slimy little soul, is just not reliable. Also many listed were opponents fought on tour, paid if they could last a few rounds. It was a common way for the champ to make money. Also consider the legality of the fight game in that era. Arranging a high profile fight was fraught with legal danger and potential monetary loss. It was just plain difficult to build a record.

My contention is that Sullivan was so good that he represents the greatest gap between champ and contenders that the division ever had

 

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This is Sullivan looking down at Dominick McCaffrey.
Sullivan was 208lbs, McCaffrey 167.5lbs
In the picture Sullivan looks fat and flabby.
Sullivan had real power in his right hand and was fast into range, but had he no answer to Corbett's skills and that isn't simply because he was 34, inactive and a fat drunk,he simply had no experience of them.
Late in his career Peter Jackson would probably have taken the measure of him but was never given the opportunity. John L was a colossus for his time but it would be unfair to compare him to those that came after,imo.

 

Well, it was a different time. There was no proper record keeping. Boxing was not legal everywhere. There was no "globalisation" of the sports, people fought who was around; probably more often than not local strong men. Training, nutrition ... everything was different. Boxing was as much about endurance, durability and stamina as it was about strength. Skills were second to these (in)tangibles.
In history you need to judge events and people by the standards of their time and not by your standards from your time.
Because of this I don't think you can compare fighters or their records from Sullivan's era to later ones, even fighters from transitional eras like Jeffries or Johnson are hard to compare. It's tempting to do but IMO it doesn't make any sense.
Sullivan was the first (hw) champ. He dominated his era. Details are a bit muddy. But his peers took him for the best. That's what we have, rest is speculation.

 

Take off your 21st century goggles, that is a PRIME HOSS. The Irish American genes tend to collect muscle in a form that resembles fat in the eye of the uninitiated. Sullivan cut down to 12 pints a days for the McCaffrey fight. I do believe that earlier in the week he hoisted a rail trolly aloft to shake out a trollop who had disrespected him.

 

Sullivan is very tricky to rate. Out of the ring, there is no question of his importance to boxing.
In the ring, I'll settle for he was perhaps the best puncher in a time where there were few big hitters, and he had quick feet for a guy his size. So was he a tough man skilled ( or very green amateur ) boxer with a good punch, or something more? I do think he was at least durable.

His resume of wins, however, is on the weak side.

Had Sullivan fought Jackson, Goddard, Dooley, Choynski, Maher, or Slavin...anyone on that level we'd have a better idea of how good he was.

Slavin was there. Richard Fox, the man who ran the Police Gazette, offered Sullivan a chance to meet Slavin. Sullivan refused. He would not fight Peter Jackson either. So he avoided the two best, three if you count Goddard.

His best-gloved opponent is likely Charley Mitchel, the problem is Mitchell, was a smaller middle without a big punch, and he floored Sullivan in their first match in a loss, and later drew with him over 39 rounds. Corbett below Mitchell away in three rounds for his first title defense.

Another problem was by 1885 when the competition I recognize began to increase a bit, Sullivan's early KO's became rarer, and he started to draw more often or win on points. With power being the last thing to go, and Sullivan at the time being in his 20's by the mid-1880's, you have to wonder about this. Some would say his prime was very short.

Boxing back then was in its infancy for gloves, and the rules were often blurred. By the time Sullivan retired, the game had become more scientific. For example, Sullivan himself said has he fought Jeffries, Jeffries would have put it to him because by then the game had become more skilled.

A quick summary of his matches:

[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_L._Sullivan[/url]

 

Just a quick correction, Sullivan was 33 for Corbett, not 34. I do agree he had never seen anyone like Corbett and really struggled, not wining a round.

I would say Sullivan's best weight was about 190.

Good photo though

 

Sullivan was a fat, drunken mick who "boxed" other fat, drunken micks. The first person he fought that
had any idea of how to box was Corbett, who fought with his butt cheeks hanging out and who was a pansy, and
Corbett beat the crap of out him.

GTFOH with John L. Sullivan.

 

good fighter, but only a split title holder by his own choice.

if he wanted to "unify" he could have tried, but he deliberately chose not to have to face a whole category of the population. Until he did, he was not undisputed.

The WBO title holder of his day,.

 

Sullivan was great at whatever they did at the time, he is a legend in most of the old irish bars worldwide even til this day & perhaps his drinking helps his legend. The thing is if he avoided the better men of his day that takes off a multitude of points. How many people this day could do what Sullivan did, drink a pint & still fight? He was great in his day but how would he do vs Tunney?,Walcott, Charles? and some of the other great boxers who were south of 200lbs ....hard to mix timelines or era's especially bare knuckle & gloves.

 

Yeah you are right I came from a line of Catch wrestlers who traveled with carnivals taking on the strongest men for 5 minutes rarely dd any of these guys last the full 5 minutes and claim the prize

 

It is documented that Sullivan ,roaring drunk was standing on the back of the last of a line of railway carriages speeding him to his next destination the engine gave a sudden lurch and Sullivan abruptly departed off the rear of the train,to lie unconscious in a field in the middle of nowhere.
One wonders what his reaction was when he woke up from his stupor?
"Hmmph ,if this is Kansas ,I don't think much of it!"