Floyd Patterson vs Cleveland Williams

Williams going 1-1-1 with Terrell and Machen proves Williams was one of the more elite contenders of the 60s.

 

For about 5 minuets williams was up there with the level of machen a guy the same level of foley and firmly considered just outside of championship class. It dosnt mean much.

Cooper was 1-1 with Foley who was machen level. So how far ahead of cooper was machen if eddie could not beat Foley? Where does that put Williams if he could not beat machen?

Where does that put ingo? Ingo knocked out Cooper. Ingo knocked out Machen and ingo knocked out Patterson.

So that puts ingo firmly above Williams.

 

Give me 20 guys with a better version of ingos bingo..

 

Never said Ingo wasn’t above Williams. I said nowhere on planet earth would Johansson have beaten Liston in 1959

 

Stat wise in 1959 it would at least be a 50-50 on paper.

Like Edward says, Liston was a better fighter, but without them meeting we will never know if ingos movement and right hand could have made him a surprise bogey man like schmeling was to Joe Louis.

Sonny was absent from the ring in 1957. He was new to scene in 1958-1959 and had yet to face elite opponents until 1960. By the time he beat machen Liston was a better fighter. But some earlier fights like the besmanoff and whitehurst experiences don’t show me that ingo would be so convincingly out of his depth.

Whitehurst was only a sparring partner of Ingo for the machen fight.

 

"Miteff was rated top 10"

Okay, and how does he compare to Heinz Neuhaus and Joe Erskine, who were "unrated" and therefore nothing much according to several posters. Here are the last few fights for each--

Alex Miteff
9/1959---Billy Hunter (TKO by 7)
11/1959--Billy Hunter (L 10)
2/1960---Jose Giorgetti (KO 2)
3/1960---Monroe Ratliff (KO 4)
4/1960---Don Warner (TKO 5)
5/1960---Eddie Machen (L 10)
12/1960--Henry Cooper (L 10)
3/1961---Alonzo Johnson (W 10)
3/1961---George Chuvalo (L 10)

5/1961---Cleveland Williams (TKO by 5)

Heinz Neuhaus
11/1956--Gerhard Hecht (W-12)
2/1957---Brian London (W 10)
4/1957---Hans Friedrich (W 12)
6/1957---Joe Bygraves (WDQ 6)
9/1957---Hans Kalbfell (TKO by 8)
10/957---Hans Friedrich (W 10)
1/1958---Henry Cooper (D 10)
4/1958---Joey Maxim (W 10)

7/1958---Ingemar Johansson (KO by 4)

Now I am not arguing that Neuhaus deserves to be in the top ten, or anything, and the loss to Kalbfell sticks out, but he had gone 6-1-1 and he had beaten better fighters than Miteff had beaten in a couple of years. Hecht was actually the #1 light-heavy contender at the end of 1956. Maxim was washed up, but a former champion. London, Bygraves, and Cooper were contending for the British Empire championship and Cooper and London would have wins over Folley and Pastrano in 1958. The only even second or third-tier guy Miteff had beaten in his last 9 fights was the fading Alonso Johnson. So why am I supposed to consider Neuhaus just nothiing and Miteff this great scalp just because an American publication and/or an American organization--the NBA--decided to rate Miteff despite his losing 5 of 9 and coming off a loss.

Joe Erskine
2/1957---Nino Valdes (KO by 1)
5/1957---Peter Bates (W 12)
9/1957---Henry Cooper (W 15)
11/1957--Joe Bygraves (W 15)

2/1958---Ingemar Johansson (KO by 13)

Erskine was actually 32-1-1 going into the Ingo fight. Yes, he had been taken out in one by Valdes, and it is fair to point out that Miteff got a split decision win over Valdes in 1958, but Miteff was also blown out in one by both Mike DeJohn and Willi Besmanoff, the latter a fighter who had lost in Europe to Friedrich. As Valdes was rated near the top of the division in both 1957 and 1958, I don't really see why even a bad KO loss to him is quite the end of the world. Erskine had only lost once in his career, and would go on to beat Pastrano and Chuvalo. I again don't see any rationale at all for viewing Erskine as not much of anything but Miteff this valuable scalp.

What it boils down to is that all these men were second tier contenders of the sort in which A beats B and B beats C and C beats A, and so take your pick.

I can't say for certain if any of these men had that good a claim to be rated in the top ten when they met Williams or Johansson, but I do think Neuhaus and Erskine probably had the better claims as at least they hadn't been losing most of their fights over the last couple of years.

By the way, some might say some of this is hindsight, but that is the advantage we have looking back at the past. We can see the final picture.

 

Fair enough.

 

"Never said Ingo wasn't above Williams."

Not certain I would have guessed this prior to this post,

but glad your backing off a bit on trashing Ingo.

 

I hope Boxed Ears sees this post

 

And why would that be???

Is he also going to shy away from naming 20 guys with better versions of ingos bingo?

 

It's possible, Patterson was down more times in HW World Title fights than any other fighter. Patterson and Ezzard Charles were down more times in their career than any other HW Champion. HOWEVER...

Patterson was quick and he could punch. Williams was not known for his durability. He was not known for beating good fighters either. Williams went 1-1 (1) vs. Ernie Terrell and he had a Draw vs. Eddie Machen. All the other well known fighters he faced beat him, usually by KO. He did not make it past the 3rd round vs. a 180 Lb. Bob Satterfield, Liston x2, or Ali.

I'll take Patterson by stoppage but I'm sure Williams makes it interesting for as long as it lasts.

 

Williams was only 20 years old when he fought satterfield, and a last minute substitute. You can't possibly hold this fight against him.

Ali and Liston both destroyed Patterson as well, 4 knockouts.

Williams had the size, handspeed, power, and strength to give a Chinny Floyd a lot of stylistic issues

 

The first time Williams ever lost, he already had exactly the same number of fights as Mike Tyson had when he fought Berbick. With that many fights Tyson showed age can be a number. Yet Williams was found out against hand picked ten fight novice who decked him twice. Satterfeild was actually the second time Williams lost.And that time he was knocked down three times by 20lb the lighter man.

Tommy Jackson was a better fighter than Williams. He was just as tall, probably faster and he beat better guys than Williams did. Floyd gave him a whupping. And there is little evidence he wouldn’t give one to Williams too.

They were both a peg behind those two. But so was Brian London. Williams can join London on that score. He fared no better against Ali.

 

1. Again I will repeat, Williams was 20 years old and took the fight on LAST MINUTE NOTICE . He was also 15lb smaller. No man is as physically mature at 20 years old as he is at 25-28 years old . Williams was nowhere near his physically mature prime he reached 5 years later. In case you name a few exceptions, Williams was not one of them.

2. Shows how little you know about the era. Jackson was NOT a better fighter than Williams. He was a complete screw ball. Erratic, mentally unstable, very peculiar. He was very skinny but was a high volume guy, had good stamina, and could take a punch but that was about it. He had a few good wins, but Nino Valdez exposed him for what he all knew he was. Williams was a better puncher and better fighter than Valdez.

3. Their is strong evidence Williams was a much tougher fight for Patterson then Jackson. Williams was much bigger at 215-220lb in his prime, while Jackson was a skinny 190-195lb in his prime. Williams could hit, really hard. Jackson had practically no one punch power to threaten Floyd. Williams had elite handspeed to go with his power. Jackson threw a lot of punches, but didn't have good speed.

(Williams) Size power handspeed = dangerous fight for Floyd

(Jackson) no power slow skinny good chin= Punching bag for Floyd


4. You're putting Cleveland Williams on the same rating scale as Brian London?

 

Despite the obvious physical tools Williams possessed over London (punching power, size, strength, handspeed, footspeed, reach)....here's a few common opponents they shared


Eddie Machen: Williams and London both fought the same version in 1961-1962

London got destroyed by Machen

Machen dominated the bout as London was little more than a punching bag for the American. London retired in his corner after 5th round, complaining that his nose felt like it was broken.

Source: Associated Press, October 18, 1963

On the other hand, Williams did quiet well vs Machen

Eddie Machen, 198, and Cleveland Williams, 211 1/2, ruined their immediate chances for a heavyweight title shot last night with a cautiously fought 10 round draw. Both Machen, the No. 2 heavyweight contender, and Williams, ranked No. 5, climbed into the ring hoping to come out with a clearcut right to challenge the Sonny Liston-Floyd Patterson winner for the title. Machen came out unscarred, Williams had a cut on the mouth and a mouse over his right eye. Williams, a powerful left hooker, shook Machen in the 3rd and 8th rounds. Machen scored heavily with his effective counter-punching." -The Fresno Bee

AP scorecard: 96-94 For Williams

• Both fighters received $22,000 apiece from the gate

Post fight comment

• "In a way he's tougher to fight than Liston because he has the speed the other doesn't have. You can't walk around Cleveland like you can Liston." -Eddie Machen

Dick Richardson cut up londons face so badly they had to stop the fight

"Dick Richardson of Wales, European heavyweight champion, retained his title Tuesday night by stopping Brian London of Britain in the 8th round. London was forced to quit because of a cut eye. - AP

Williams knocked down Richardson and beat him


"Cleveland Williams of the U.S. defeated Dick Richardson in their scheduled 10 round bout tonight when the Welsh boxer was disqualified in the 4th round for butting. In the 1st round the Welshman forced the Yank to back away from a flurry of blows. After that, Williams took charge. He floored Richardson for a count of two in the 1st round just after the Welsh boxer drew his first warning for butting. Blood ran from a gash on Williams' cheek as he sat in his corner between the 1st and 2nd rounds. He rocked Richardson with a left to the jaw in the 2nd and halted a Richardson flurry with two uppercuts in the 3rd. The American's cheek began bleeding again after Richardson was warned for butting. Then came the 4th and Richardson butted himself right out of the fight." -United Press