https://imgur.com/gallery/GDoGXWo The first fight I ever saw as a kid, and one I really wanted to do right. Hope you enjoy it.
It's the difference in Tyson possibly being considered THE Greatest Heavy of all time (because God knows he had the physical skill, and fighting I.Q) to a fighter that ranks somewhere in the top 10-15 heavys of all times. That mental make-up. He showed to the world when a fighter of equal ability pushed back, he took the easy way out and intentionally got himself DQ. Remember he did it twice. He wanted a way out, and bit Holyfield's ears twice to get it. A real warrior wouldn't have done such a thing. Fighters like Liston, Foreman,and Ali he wouldn't defeat with that mental weakness. Fighters like Holmes,Frazier, A in shape and a focused Bowe , he would be hard pressed to beat. All the fighters I listed wouldn't be intimidated by him at all. A few ( Liston,Foreman and a in shape Bowe) would possibly intimidate him. Even fighters of far less ability, but could hit very hard and wouldn't be intimidated by him like a Shavers or Lyle would be a threat because of their mental toughness. Tyson was a dynamic force, and had all the tools any pro fighter could want. BUT, not only in the Holyfield fights, but a few others he showed inside he was the typical bully. And once you stand up to the typical bully, he tries to find away out. The difference in being the G.O.A.T consideration, too 10 -15 all time.
What about eye burning chemicals reported twice? Do you think this is true about the young Tyson too? Which fights?
He had the potential to be the greatest and he fell far short of expectations. But he's solid top 10. Give me more examples apart from the 2nd fight with Evander Holyfield. When you come to think of it, with the first fight with Evander Holyfield none of what you said there is remotely applicable. Liston quit in his first fight against Ali. Once he failed to intimidate a young Clay/Ali he tried to cheat and when that failed he quit. George Foreman when facing someone who can take his punches and push back he quit and accepted a Knockout loss rather than get up from the canvas and win. He wasn't out cold and he practically beat the count. He was mentally beaten. Tyson knocked out Holmes. And he would also do the same to a younger version. Frazier wouldn't handle Tyson's power. Bowe's a wildcard. The word was Tommy Morrison used to get the better of him in sparring. But then again so did Evander Holyfield. Bowe never really faced big punchers and therefore its hard to say how he'd fare against Tyson. Wold have been a great fight. In any case not being intimidated by Tyson isn't going to help you fight. It may very well accelerate your demise. Look a Trevor Berbick, he practically threw his game plan out of the window just so that he can impose his will on Tyson. It didn't work out. Professional fighters fighting on the highest levels are expected NOT to be intimidated by their opponents. In any case, Shavers and Lyle would be lunch meat. Foreman, Liston and Bowe would be in for the fight of their lives; Foreman and Bowe would be underdogs and Liston would be at even money odds. You didn't mention the other fights.
Tyson tried to quit in the 1st Holyfield fight as well. He charged in with his head very obvious and then ask to see the ring doctor. I don't recall a great warrior in the heat of battle asking for the doctor. The doctor didn't stop it and Tyson did stand in there and take his beating like a man.
Ok, I'll start with Ali v Liston. Ali introduced to Liston something he never had to deal with before. A lightning quick, big and strong heavy who in Listons mind was A little crazy plus He had the backings of the N.O.I . And that organization may have had a bigger influence on Liston than Ali's perceived craziness. Tysons approached to fighting a Liston would've be completely different. Tyson would come the thug route. That's right up Listons alley. And I'd pick a real thug (Liston) than 1 who pretended to be one. Mentioning Holmes loss to a prime Tyson, is the same as Tyson loss to Lewis, McBride or William's. Thinking he beats a prime Holmes is your opnion. My opnion is he don't. Outside of Razor Ruddick what puncher The quality of a Lyle or Shavers did he face? Sure I think Tysons beats them, but I can see those two giving Tyson Hell a couple rds. And if they land cleanly like Ruddick did, well it would be very interesting to see how Tyson responded. Even in his prime, when he fought a fighter he couldn't just run over he went into a shell. And hell two of the most respected men in boxing T.Atlas and K.Rooney thought for all his physicality and skill he was no more than a bully on the inside. They knew him intimately. He quit against Mcbride, did Ali quit against Berbick, ?Louis against Marciano ?Frazier against Ali in Manila? Multiple times Tyson quit or seemed he wanted to quit, body language can speak volumes if you know what your looking at. Mentioning Foremans loss to Ali you say he quit. I saw a man (Foreman) who fought the stupidest fight probably in history and expended himself to complete exhaustion. But unlike Tyson, Foreman proved who he was against Lyle. Than later against a prime Holyfield in a loss, and a much younger M.Moorer in come from behind win. How many come from behind wins did Tyson have? Their are multiple times fighters have shown they were intimidated before they got in a boxing ring, Patterson against Liston, Spinks against Tyson, Norton against Foreman and Cooney to name a few. Just because Berbick came out aggressively against Tyson doesn't mean he wasn't intimidated, it mean he did something stupid and ran into the teeth of the shark to try and prove he wasn't. But body language speaks volumes and he was. And by the way theirs nothing wrong with fear or intimidation, but it's how its controlled is the difference in winning or losing. Some fighters beat themselves before the 1st punch is thrown.
I disagree saying Foreman fought the stupidest fight in history against Ali. I don't think anybody but Ali takes that kind of a beating and comes back to finish Foreman. Most would have collapsed by round 4 but Ali was Ali, we knew he was tough but nobody could have predicted he'd take 7 rounds of battering with so much as flinching from a puncher like Foreman. Gatti's choice to box with Floyd might be the stupidest fight in history.
So you want to give Liston a pass for trying to cheat because he was dealing with something he's never dealt with before? Because Ali was lightning quick and big and strong? You're telling me a "real thug" with ties to the mob, who tried to intimidate Ali and when he failed he cheated by using chemicals on his gloves to blind Ali to try to get an advantage and when that failed he quit on his stool and did so because he was afraid of Ali for being crazy and having ties to NOI? Looks like you're giving Sonny Liston a helluva pass. You're bending over backwards to support a weak argument. And its not working. What is "the thug route" and why do you presuppose Tyson would come "the thug route"? The Holmes that lost to Tyson was in better condition than the Tyson who lost to Lewis. I can't picture Tyson 4 years after losing to Lewis beating an undefeated Ray Mercer. McBride and Williams aren't counted towards his legacy. He was well past the sell by date. Tyson also faced Bruno and Smith who were big punchers. Tyson would KO Shavers in the 1st or 2nd round and he's beat Lyle in less than 5 rounds. I don't see Lyle giving him trouble or "hell" as you put it. Truthfully power has never been a prerequisite to being successful against Tyson. When Tyson was in his prime and he met a fighter he couldn't run over he usually won a lop sided decision. Or in some cases a mid fight KO. T. Atlas also has an agenda against Mike Tyson. That should have been obvious. Ali was outpointed against Berbick but he did quit against Holmes. Frazier quit in his stool upon the advice from his corner. Louis was knocked out by Marciano. Please tell me more about the "multiple times" Now Foreman gets the Hall Pass. Foreman beat the count and did not appear hurt but was mentally defeated because he made no effort to protest the stoppage so he could continue to defend his titles. In other words, he quit. If Foreman had beaten Lyle in the same manner that he beat Frazier it would have been even better. Tyson came from behind against Botha. He lost the first 4 rounds and stopped him cold in the 5th. But if there is nothing wrong with fear or intimidation why do you use it against Tyson? Make up your mind bro. Berbick wasn't afraid and "stood up to the typical bully" by coming out aggressive and he got beaten up in the process.
Botha? The 5th round is still pretty early in the fight. Technically you are correct but if that is the best example it proves that Mike didn`t have alot of those dig deep and rally type of wins. Did Mike ever knock anyone out or down past the 9th round?
Yeah, he was crying and whining to the referee a lot during that fight. Real crying, "woman-like noises" shall we say.
this ranks as my most disappointing time as a boxing fan, to this day. As a fan of Tyson's I felt like he personally let me down and spat in my face lol. I saw it then as I do now, in my mind there is no other way to reason it. Tyson was simply spooked by Holyfield, I think he thought the man was crazy having no fear like that so he quit out. I still believe pre prison Tyson had a chance though.
yeah I thought that as well, pretty much as soon as it happened it was obvious. It was a tough fight for Tyson by then and he didn't appear to be enjoying himself. Its the old excuse but I think after prison he just couldn't deal with adversity at all, you could see concern on his face whenever his opponent fought back. Before this he was hit plenty and wasn't discouraged, even against Razor Ruddock he was getting pummeled but still stayed on his game. He still falls short of being in the top 5 - 10 as showed he didn't have the ability to make a successful comeback and mentally was unable to sustain a longer career.