Ike Ibeabuchi vs Jack Dempsey

It's not a straw man at all. There's actual people on here who think that Ali for example would be clobbered by Joshua, Klitschkos, Lewis, Bowe, Ortiz, and other super heavies because he's 215 and they are 230+

 

Bert Cooper was a natural 190 lbr and according to you was seconds away from becoming heavyweight champion. Had he laid off the drugs he probably could have been.

 

Bert Cooper was 215 pounds when he almost caught lightening in a bottle...

 

And modern boxers don't end up totally wrecked?

You don't get around much, do you?

 

"natural 190 lbr"

 

Why is he a natural 190lber if he only weighed 190 or less 3 times in his entire 60+ fight career (and years before he stepped into the ring with Holyfield)? When he wasn't trying to make weight, he was a 210-220lb fighter.

By the way, honest question: do you think it's a coincidence that Cooper came closest to glory at heavyweight against former light heavies who weighed less than him (Holyfield and Moorer) and had his worst showings against large heavies (Foreman, Bowe, Sanders)?

 

I agree completely. If Dempsey had come along in recent years, he might have given us some classic battles with guys like Kovalev and Stevenson. Some fans probably even would have been clamoring for him to step up and test himself against the bigger men at cruiserweight.

 

No because Holyfield and Moorer were easily dragged into wars. They played right to Cooper's strength.

 

Yet they don't hit nearly as hard and aren't nearly as big. Rehydration is water weight. Not functional muscle. If they took a sh*t they'd lose 5 lbs.

 

I signed up for this board mainly to just state the following.

The problem with these types of comparison is that with modern training- Dempsey would be a larger man with different attributes. If you put Ibeauchi in the 20's - same deal the man is not who was in the 90s physically. That's simply the reality of the situation.

So - you really can't make an accurate prediction one way or the other because the comparison is not fair in the 1st place.

All things being equal (the key statement here if they had access to the same training methods and faught in the same era) - I'll take the legendary world titlist over a prospect who had a nice fight with David Tua once. There is no way to really know how good Ibeauchi was compared to his peers at the top level, let alone comparing him to ATG fighters. We know how good Jack Dempsey was compared to his peers. So yeah a guy who had potential versus and ATG, it's a no brainer who I would pick to win that fight.

If you transplant Dempsey from the 20's into the 90's - well I'd probably take Ibeabuchi. But again - that's not a fair comparison.

These threads are pointless unless you can objectively take these types of things into consideration. If you on the "all the old guys were great and these new guys have no skill" side, or if you are "new guys will always win because they are bigger, etc" side (which 90% of the people in this thread fall on one or the other) - then it's just a pointless exercise of people arguing between what was versus what is now.

 

There are cruiserweights who are successful at heavyweight in every era.

There are light heavyweights who are successful at heavyweight in every era, and often men from lower weight classes still.

Why should we think that Jack Dempsey, or even Georges Carpintier could not have ended up at heavyweight today?

 

This doesn't explain why Cooper fared better against them than he did against Foreman and Bowe... Why not just admit that size matters?

 

Yes it does. He fared better because they played to his strengths. The other guys didn't.

 

I'm glad you signed up, especially if this is indicative of your posting habits. Always nice to read a well reasoned post that reasonably approaches a harshly debated topic and attempts to bridge the gap between the entrenched factions.