Any information on Lem Franklin

Just on these black contenders, who were the rated ones?

1937
Roscoe Toles #9
1938
Roscoe Toles #8
1939
Roscoe Toles #9

So Toles is the only black contender rated in the late 1930's while Louis was champion. Louis KO'd Toles in April, 1935 in a bout listed as a real bout in the Ring Record Book by Fleischer who was there at the time. Boxrec has decided it was an exhibition for whatever reason. I think the Ring Record Book is probably correct on this point.

1940
Buddy Walker #5
Otis Thomas #9
Lem Franklin #10

Walker fell quickly out of the rankings after draws with Thomas and Toles, followed by losses to Tony Shucco and Toles. Thomas also fell apart.

1941
Lem Franklin #2
Turkey Thompson #6
Roscoe Toles #10

We are discussing Franklin. Thompson lost to Pastor also. Louis fights two charity defenses in 1942 in which he donates his winnings to the Army and Navy relief. He is already in the military and so is not a free agent. He enlisted I believe in December, 1941.

1942-1945 Louis in service and not fighting.

The top contenders after the war
1945
1---Billy Conn
2---Tami Mauriello
3---Jimmy Bivins

1946
1---Tami Mauriello
2---Elmer Ray
3---Jersey Joe Walcott

1947
1---Jersey Joe Walcott
2---Elmer Ray
3---Lee Q Murray

1948
1---Jersey Joe Walcott
2---Ezzard Charles
3---Lee Savold

My conclusion looking at the ratings is that the only "miss" worth getting excited about would be Elmer Ray. Louis was less active after the war, and Ray not being given a shot during the 16 month layoff between the Mauriello and Walcott fights raises legit issues. Of course, Walcott won his rubber match with Ray to become the #1 contender.

 

Perhaps I am too cynical, but I think if Jeffries or Dempsey or Marciano had defended against the same seven contenders in one year, those guys would be known today as a murderer's row rather than as the bums of the month.

I can't say if any of this was deliberate, but the way it worked out devalued Louis. There were often disparaging comments about the bums of the month when I was younger, although now, at least on a board like this, this sort of dismissal has perhaps receded some.

Still, I can't recall very many, or even any, pointing out how impressive it was to have made seven title defenses in one year.

 

Joe Louis 1942-1945 title reign simulation

Joe Louis entered the Army in 1942, to defend his country in World War II. Let's pretend, that Louis never joined the army. That he was allowed to continue defending his title during these war years. His reign would start in Mid 1942 and go until 1946.

Louis defended his title 1 time in 1937, 3 times in 1938, 4 times in 1939, 4 times in 1940, 7 times in 1941, and 2 times before leaving in the war. Despite Louis turning 28 years of age in 1942, he seemed to show no signs of slowing down his activity. I do think Louis would have eventually slowed his activity down as he got past 30 years of age. There was a great crop of Black Murders row of Heavyweights who dominated the heavyweight picture from 1943-1945. Despite Louis mainly fighting white fighters in his title reign, he did defend his title against 2 hall of famers who were black, JHL and JJW. I do think Louis would have fought more often against black heavyweights during this time, as these crop had the public approval, drawing power, and high rating, to gammer worthiness of a title shot.


1942: September

Melio Bettina:

Size: 5'9 175lb
Style: Southpaw counterpuncher
Rating: # 4 in the world

Joe Louis KO 9 Melio Bettina

1943: March

Turkey Thompson

Size: 5'8 200lb
Style: Slugger
Rating: # 3 in the world

Louis TKO 11 Thompson- Wild Slugfest! Louis down twice in the first.

1943- May

Roscoe Toles

Size: 6'2 200lb
Style: Mauler with a good jab
Rating: # 4 in the world

Louis TKO 13 Toles

1943: June

Lee Savold

Size: 6'0 190lb
Style: Boxer Puncher
Rating: # 7 in the world

Joe Louis KO 4 Lee Savold

1943: September

Jimmy Bivins

Size: 5'9 180lb 80" reach
Style: Defensive Counterpuncher
Rating: # 1 in the world

Joe Louis W 15 Jimmy Bivins. Majority Decision. Very close fight.

1943: December

Jimmy Bivins II

Joe Louis KO 4 Jimmy Bivins - Louis dominates

1944: April

Joe Baksi

Size: 6'1 220lb
Style: Mauler
Rating: # 4 in the world

Joe Louis TKO 4 Baksi

1944: July

Lee Q Murray

Size: 6'3 210lb
Style: Slugger-Boxer
Rating: # 3 in the world

Joe Louis KO 7 Murray- Louis down in round 3.

1944: November

Lee Oma

Size: 5'11 190lb
Style: Boxer-Mover
Rating: # 5 in the world

Joe Louis KO 2 Oma

1945: February

Elmer Ray

Size: 6'2 195lb
Style: Punching-Swarmer
Rating: # 8 in the World

Joe Louis KO 4 Ray- Louis down once in round 2. Louis close to being knocked out.


1945: May

Elmer Ray II

Joe Louis KO 7 Elmer Ray


1945: Octobery

Bruce Woodcock

Size: 6'1 200lb
Style: Brawler/right hand puncher
Rating: # 5 in the world

Joe Louis KO 1 Woodock




Results: 12-0 with 11 knockouts

 

There is a huge huge statistic that is entirely missed or ignored when discussing the rise of talented black fighters during world war 2: World War 2. A huge percentage of the talented white boxers on the scene in every division were now out of the running. This had an easily discernible impact on the ratings and without taking credit away from the black fighters its entirely conjecture that those same fighters would have filled the ratings with their white counterparts not out of the running. There is no guarantee that the supposed murderers rows of the WWs, MWs, LHWs, and HWs of the 1940s would have been able rise to the top with guys like Billy Conn, Tony Zale, Georgie Abrams, etc not to mention a whole host of dangerous contenders not knocked out of commission by the war. Its one thing to say "If Joe Louis' career hadn't been interrupted by the war would he have fought all of these guys who potentially benefitted from the depleted ranks of boxers during the war. But without the war throwing the sport into chaos many of those same fighters would have, like Franklin, found themselves either not rated or rated for a very short period of time. Guys like Toles, Thompson, Murray, and Sheppard were inconsistent performers when faced with top guys and all lost at times to their white counterparts. Ray had long winning streaks but look at his competition during those periods. Non-descript is a compliment to them. He was fighting complete stiffs in the sticks. He didn't really show he could beat a contender until after the war and then any rating he would have won for himself was like franklin, short lived, because losses invariably followed. Bivins was the only one who could consistently win during the war years against top flight competition so I could see him leveraging a title shot if he really wanted it. I don't see him winning though. When he got ahold of a completely shot Louis he looked like a middleweight next to Joe and ran like a thief all night long. I cant see him doing better against a younger Joe. He may not have been in his prime when they fought but Joe was WAY further down on the pugilistic ladder and Jimmy took zero chances with him then. I guess my point is that Im just not sure the HW landscape looks dramatically different from 1942 to 1946 without the war.

 

Yeah this is a great post...and totally agree about Bivins Louis. You don’t happen to know if that’s filmed do you?

 

Number of Title Defenses By World Heavyweight Champions Vs. Black Challengers:

1. John L. Sullivan- 0
2. Jim Corbett- 0
3. Bob Fitzsimmons- 0
4. Jim Jeffries- 0
5. Marvin Hart- 0
6. Tommy Burns- 1 (Jack Johnson)
7. Jack Johnson- 1 (Battling Jim Johnson)
8. Jess Willard- 0
9. Jack Dempsey- 0
10. Gene Tunney- 0
11. Max Schmeling- 0
12. Jack Sharkey- 0
13. Primo Carnera- 0
14. Max Baer- 0
15. Jim Braddock- 1 (Joe Louis)
16. Joe Louis- 3 (John Henry Lewis, Jersey Joe Walcott- twice)

Note- Louis made as many title defenses against black challengers as all of the previous fifteen world heavyweightchampions put together under the Marquis of Queensbury Rules. Something else to think about.....Louis fought in four of the first six world heavyweight bouts which involved black challengers.

 

The way to look at it is only two black men fought Louis in title matches. They were John Henry Lewis and Joe Walcott.

That depends. But say Charles is in the mix, Louis really did not perform well vs Black opponents in title matches as he lost far more rounds than he won.

Buddy Bear? Who did he beat? Galento who was 1-2 in his last three fights and not ranked at the time? I noticed Buddy Bear lost to Blunt just before Galento. So he gets a title shot based on coming off a loss, then beating someone who was 1-2 in his last three fights.

That is fair to say, however, Martin had a glass body and jaw and was not a threat to the champion and just 21 years of age by 1902. Martin's best was up to 1902 was probably a news win against Armstrong in late 1902, however, he was 1-4 after that loss to Armstrong via KO in 1903, in addition to losing to Johnson and Mcvey.

Well Ray, Franklin, and Thompson were better than the guys I mentioned so it's not pointless. Roper Musto, McCoy and Dorazio did not deserve title shots. Where were they ranked? No. See my point? Ray, Franklin and Thompson were ranked, yet they did not get title shots.

I don't think Buddy Bear was very good. Conn was, no issues there and he almost beat Joe Louis. Nova was decent, but a non-threatening type, Franklin, in my opinion, would have a better chance at beating Louis than Lou Nova.

 

Yes, I own it. Bivins fights like a poor mans Jimmy Young. Louis looks HUGE next to him.

 

Top 35 black heavyweights 1930-1950


1. Joe Louis- 6'2 200lb 76"
2. Jersey Joe Walcott- 6'0 195lb 73"
3. Ezzard Charles- 6'0 185lb 72"
4. Elmer Ray- 6'2 195 78"
5. Archie Moore- 5'11 185 76"
6. Jimmy Bivins- 5'9 185 76"
7. George Godfrey- 6'3 225lb 80"
8. Larry Gains 6’1 205lb 77”
9. Turkey Thompson- 5’8 210lb 73”
9. Lee Q Murray- 6'4 210lb (?)
10. Lem Franklin- 6'2 200lb 76"
11. Roscoe Toles- 6'2 200lb
12. Albert Santiago Lovell 6’3 205lb
13. Harry Bobo 6’4 220lb 78”
14. Eddie Blunt 6’0 220lb
15. Sid Peaks 6’3 215lb
16. Leroy Haynes 6’1 210lb 76”
17. John Henry Lewis- 6'0 180lb 76"
18. Tiger Jack Fox- 5'11 175lb 75"
19. Hatchetman Sheppard- 5'11 180
20. Jack Trammell- 6'6 185lb 80"
21. Ed Bearcat Wright - 6'1 210
22. Buddy Walker - 5'11 195
23. Obie Walker 5’9 230lb
24. Al Hart- 6'1 225lb
25. Willie Reddish- 5'11 190
26. Johnny Haynes- 6'4 220
27. Rusty Payne 5’11 185
28. Henry "Snow" Flakes- 6'0 195
29. Lou Brooks- 6'0 190lb
30. Otis Thomas 5’11 205
31. Clayton Worlds- 6'6 195
32. Big Boy Brown- 6'1 250lb
33. Lorenzo Pack- 5'11 200
34. Perk Daniels- 6'0 190
35. Tiger Ted Lowry- 5'10 180

 

Is it worth even buying off you or is it as dull a fight as they say?

Questions

1. How often did Louis throw his right hand or combinations?

2. Was it a clear cut 8 rounds to 2 decision for Louis?

3. Was the fight mainly Bivins retreating and Louis jabbing?

 

Number of Title Defenses By World Heavyweight Champions Vs. Black Challengers:

1. John L. Sullivan- 0
2. Jim Corbett- 0
3. Bob Fitzsimmons- 0
4. Jim Jeffries- 0
5. Marvin Hart- 0
6. Tommy Burns- 1 (Jack Johnson)
7. Jack Johnson- 1 (Battling Jim Johnson)
8. Jess Willard- 0
9. Jack Dempsey- 0
10. Gene Tunney- 0
11. Max Schmeling- 0
12. Jack Sharkey- 0
13. Primo Carnera- 0
14. Max Baer- 0
15. Jim Braddock- 1 (Joe Louis)
16. Joe Louis- 3 (John Henry Lewis, Jersey Joe Walcott- twice)

Note- Louis made as many title defenses against black challengers as all of the previous fifteen world heavyweightchampions put together under the Marquis of Queensbury Rules. Something else to think about.....Louis fought in four of the first six world heavyweight bouts which involved black challengers.

 

Charles 3
Walcott 1
Marciano 4
Patterson 2
Liston 2
Ali 5 in his first reign

And so on. So Joe did just fine considering there were a hell of a lot more white contenders in his day and less black contenders for various reasons and his reign was truncated by the war.

 

It would probably cost more than you would want to pay regardless of how exciting or boring it is. But its not a good fight. Interesting but more for curiosity sake.

1. Louis primarily keeps Bivins on the end of his jab. He throws the right with bad intentions on occasion but Bivins is such a spoiler it rarely lands with effect.

1. Its not the complete fight but it jives with the newspapers which said Bivins was too small and defensive too mount an offense and Louis was too old and shot to do much himself. It just shuffled around and jabbed mostly. It was enough. Again I cant emphasize the size difference enough. You dont think of Louis as this huge guy but he was pretty damn big.

3. Yes.

 

Ahh thank you. Always wondered what happened in that fight. Yeah for the era louis was a big guy. I mean he was weighing in the same as fighters like Baker and Valdes who were considered giants in the division.

 

Excellent breakdown!