Aside from Wills and Langford, who are the best men of his day Dempsey never fought?

Both Renault and Godfrey would have been respectable opponents during the timescale you mention.

 

1914-08-19 Colorado Springs Gazette (Colorado Springs, CO) (page 7)
Kid Blackie and Young Herman, lightweights, fought a pretty six-round battle as a curtain-raiser. Both lads fought hard all the way through, Blackie using a stiff left to good advantage and Herman a right just as effectively. The bout was a draw. Freddie Windsor, ex-middleweight champion of the Pacific coast, refereed the first two bouts.

 

Tremendous information. Thanks for posting this. So the "Battling Johnson" active in Salt Lake City was Battling Billy Johnson.

So my issue of how this man somehow got confused with the heavyweight contender Battling Johnson remains valid for me.

Just a question, do you have a report that Dempsey in fact fought either this Battling Billy Johnson or anyone named Jim Johnson in 1915?

 

Okay.

So you think Battling Billy Johnson and Dempsey probably didn't fight.

This is getting more interesting.

Senya has such great research sources, I hope he clarifies whom Dempsey did fight on 1/1/1915,

or informs us if he can't find any report on any such fight.

The issue of how this "Johnson" somehow got mixed up years later with the conveniently dead Battling Johnson remains valid for me,

and saying some Jim Johnson "may" have used the nickname Battling is really getting pretty weak.

 

More fantastic info. Thanks for posting. So a fight between Dempsey and Battling Billy Johnson would supposedly have been at lightweight!

 

"I thought you were pretty clear that Jack Kearns (who didn't even manage Dempsey in 1915) was spreading that information."

I will clarify. I have no source for where this mistake started from. It is only my guess that Kearns is the most likely source for this confusion. He was the manager of Dempsey at the time this mistake was spreading in the press.

Most mistakes don't matter much, but this is an interesting and convenient mistake used to at least attempt to sway the public on the relative statures of Wills and Dempsey.

"I think perhaps you're being a bit too severe on the reporters"

Well, research wasn't nearly as easy as it is today. That is for certain. Still, common sense would seem to make a one-round KO of the heavyweight Battling Johnson in 1914 or early 1915 unlikely.

as for an "agenda" I'm open to any information about what actually happened. If this situation ends up not making Dempsey look so good, so be it. That is what history is all about--probing the past for the truth. When I was a student back in the fifties and sixties, I was taught that Woodrow Wilson was a great man and president. Now many historians score him as a racist who supported the KKK, an imperialist who invaded several countries, including Mexico and Russia, an autocrat who egregiously violated civil liberties at home, and a blunderer who botched the peace settlement after WWI. Is it only the modern historians who have an agenda? Or did the old guys who puffed up Wilson in the first place also have their own agenda?

An agenda isn't the issue. The truth is.

 

Most of the time the Evening Telegram and the Tribune referred to him as Battling Johnson, but sometimes they called him Billy Johnson, so I combined both versions. Another example is Young Wolgast, which was the most common variant the newspapers used, but a couple of times they called him Young Ad Wolgast, I used the most complete one. Young Jimmy Britain was called Young Jack Britton once or twice, but I thought that was an anomaly and stuck to the most frequent variant. In case of Kid Mack, in a couple of early bouts he was referred to as Mush McCabe, then he decided to change his nickname to Kid Mack, according to newspapers, so I combined both the old and the new nickname, referring to him as Kid Mack (Mush McCabe).

 

I never said Langford was worthy of a title shot. I said Dempsey AVOIDED him. And he did prior to winning a championship. Trying to switch off tangents never helps you.

You really are dense.

Count the DUCKS

1. Wills

2. Greb

3. Norfolk

4. Langford ( Dempsey's management said he was too good )

5. Jeannette. Older, but in the ring as a sub. Dempsey declined the fight.

 

Yes, Senya has excellent information. He should write a book one day, clearing up the fake news in the sport.

Remember when he raised the roof with primary information from those at ringside who said saying Jack Johnson was tiring doing less / clinching more often and Fireman Flynn still fresh when they DQ'd Flynn in the 1912 title fight?!

 

Dempsey refused to fight Langford and GunBoat Smith in1916. Dempsey was still a kid.
Still waiting for the source from Dempsey's management saying Langford was too good, can we expect an answer this year?

Champion Jim Jeffries = Jack Johnson quack quack,Denver Ed Martin quack quack,Sam McVey quack quack!!!!lol

 

This “Kid Blackie” was not Jack Dempsey.

 

I can understand why people criticize him for not defending hist title against Wills and Greb, but I cannot in all conscience blame him for not fighting an ancient Langford, or Jeanette, or even a prime Norfolk.

 

Dempsey admitted turning down a fight with Langford in 1916-1917 out of fear of losing.

Wills in only his 2nd year of pro fighting took on Sam Langford multiple times.

Would you have excused wills had he turned down fights with Langford in 1914-1916 stating he wasn’t ready?

“Jeanette”

He was in the ring ready to fight Dempsey. Had Jeanette been white, Dempsey would have fought him.

“Norfolk”

Better title defense than a dying Miske or Brennan

 

I would excuse any young green fighter not fighting a dangerous punching world ranked veteran of around 200 fights.Dempsey paid his own way to box a free exhibition for the war drive when he got there his opponent hadn't turned up and Jeannette was there wanting a real fight.
I suppose he just happened to be there with his ring togs lol?

Dempsey realized he had been set up and declined to fight Jeannette.
Now according to you Dempsey was afraid of a the 39years old Jeannette who had barely beaten the teenaged Carpentier whom Dempsey later destroyed.
Dempsey was beating up George Godfrey,Bill Tate,Jamaica Kid ,Panama Joe Gans daily, why would he be afraid of an old Jeannette,because he was half black?

You are not rational on this subject!"

imo This episode reflects very badly on Jeannette, and anyone blaming Dempsey for not going through with this obvious con is definitely incapable of any degree of objectivity about Dempsey. Miske died 3 years later after amassing a further 24 victories without a loss.Even your rival Dempsey hater, Klompton doesn't go so far as to state these 24 fights were fakes! Get down off your soap box ,you'll get dizzy!

 

Which guy did Dempsey actually fight on 1/1/1915?

The info seems all over the place. Battling Billy Johnson is a lightweight. Kid Blackie is a lightweight. Dempsey is fighting in the area. Secondary sources say Dempsey beat a "Jim Johnson" who might have gone by the nickname of Battling.

What do the primary sources say?

Did this Kid Blackie fight Battling Billy Johnson and was he confused with Dempsey who supposedly earlier went by the name of Kid Blackie? Or is there another Jim Johnson?