Aside from Wills and Langford, who are the best men of his day Dempsey never fought?

the 1-1-15 date is probably a generic date carried over from the old boxrec when if they didn't know the exact date of a fight they would give the year or approximate year and just 1-1 as the date. The Kid Blackie in Colorado Springs was not Jack Dempsey. Battling Johnson, whether his name was Jim or Billy, was a lightweight. Dempsey at the time was fighting at least as a light heavyweight. He was often referred to as a "white hope" during this period alluding to the fact that he was a potential future challenger for Johnson's title. Not something they would have referred to a lightweight as. However, sometimes light heavyweights were called "lightweights" as a sort of blending of the two terms but in the case of the Colorado Springs fight those guys were actual lightweights, so not Dempsey. I said that Dempsey might have fought Battling Johnson pre 1915 because if he was younger and lighter its conceivable that Johnson could have faced a lighter Dempsey, say a middleweight, in a catchweight fight, particularly if he were a large lightweight/small welterweight and fighting a lesser experienced opponent. Records from this area and period are spotty at best, particularly given some of the less organized matches. I think its a big stretch to suggest that Jack Kearns is responsible for pretending that Dempsey fought Battling Jim Johnson, the African American contender. Ive never heard that assertion (that Dempsey or anyone else was claiming he fought THE Battling Jim Johnson) until this thread and even if it was made by someone it was likely due to the ignorance of his record and not out of malice. Indeed someone at a later date probably saw the name and assumed it was THE Jim Johnson. Kind of like people used to say that Jimmy Wilde fought THE Jack Sharkey because they were ignorant of the fact that there was another, smaller Jack Sharkey. Or that Greb knocked out THE Kid Lewis in an exhibition when in fact he knocked out another Kid Lewis who was black. Its just a misunderstanding borne out of ignorance. My best bet is that Dempsey fought somebody named Battling Johnson, maybe even the lightweight Battling Johnson from Utah, somewhere, sometime prior to 1915 in some kind of fight, whether it was a real fight, exhibition, or whatever, and it was recorded on his record either as hearsay or whatever without much detail. The early records rarely gave dates. They often had every fight listed just under the year it was held in no particular order. So its easy to see where the confusion comes in. It wouldn't surprise me if it were just an exhibition at a picnic or something. Some of Dempsey's exhibitions have remained on his record due to the stubbornness of his fans not wanting to cut down on his number of wins/kos.

 

Okay, thanks for the reply.

I am a great deal more cynical about the whole thing than you are,

but there is and can be no direct proof because no one would admit publicly to a deliberate distortion.

 

Again when Jeanette stepped in the ring had he been white, Dempsey would have continued with the fight.

I never said all of Miske 24 fights were fixes, but some of them were particularly the Fulton and Brennan fights may have been which klonpton mentioned.

Bottom line, Dempsey fought a dying man in a title defense while their were much better contenders out there like wills Greb and Norfolk who easily defeated Miske

 

This is just your opinion unsupported by any facts whatsoever.In fact the evidence is to the contrary Dempsey fought tons of exhibitions with black fighters and fighters a damn sight more dangerous than the 39 years old Jeannette.
Nobody has yet come up with any proof that any of Miske's last 24 fights were fixed in his favour.
You know nothing of those fights and are just parroting another's unproven opinion.

The reason you want this to be true is to denigrate Dempsey's challenger and by inference Dempsey ,its pretty pathetic as well as being totally predictable.
You are turning into Mendoza before our very eyes!

 

You want us to believe that Miske, suffering from severe effects of Bright’s disease, suddenly revamped his careeer and began knocking out rated contenders on his death bed? I don’t buy it, and neither do a lot of experts. The Brennan knockout smells, and the Fulton fight was very peculiar. But of course you want us to believe it because you want jack Dempsey to receive full credit for knocking out a dying man who ringsiders reporter walked into the ring looking “very pale white and sickly”

 

Can you name all these experts who "don't buy it"? I don't give Dempsey any particular credit for beating Miske I think he may have been trying to do him a favour.
You haven't seen either of those fights yet you have a definite opinion on them,and one that suits your narrative .
Very convenient.

Q Were the 24 fights after Dempsey fixed?
Q If not all which ones?
Q We know Miske was in financial straights, therefore the prospect of these men being bribed by him is extremely unlikely, therefore what was the incentive for them to allow themselves to be beaten by Miske?
Q Where is your proof?.

Sorry ,all you have is a lot of smoke and mirrors.

 

They couldn't fight between 1920 and 1921 because Johnson was in prison!
Produce one single newspaper heading that says Johnson was the leading contender during ANY of the seven years Dempsey was champion! In 1917 Dempsey was a nobody and Johnson was in exile a fugitive from justice.From June 1913 until July 1920 Johnson as on the run.Johnson did not fight in1917. Dempsey v Johnson in 1918 would not have done money Johnson was fighting in Spain and Mexico for peanuts.In1919 Dempsey began his drive for the title
there was no percentage ,or financial incentive to fight Johnson in some hole in the wall arena for dinner money.
What you don't seem to grasp is Johnson's options were extremely limited because of his pending jail sentence.

 

Janitor,

We agree on Wills and Greb being ducks. Not all here do!

Dempsey had his chances to fight Langford and Jeannette and passed. Maybe not for title fights, but on the way up for sure.

Where would a prime Norfolk rank in your opinion among Dempsey title fights?

 

When was Norfolks prime?

 

He would rank fairly respectably to be honest, but Dempsey's critics would absolutely slate him for taking the fight!

 

Why would critics slate him for taking a fight with Norfolk?

Norfolk got the better of one Harry Greb five round prior to the DQ in 1924. He also beat John Lester Johnson, a fighter Dempsey struggles with, Jeannette, a fighter Dempsey passed on, and Battling Siki. IMO, Norfolk would have added something to Dempsey's resume.

 

How?

Norfolk defeated Greb, Miske 2x, Siki who crapped on Carpenter, John Lester Johnson who drew with Dempsey, and Jeanette who Dempsey bypassed.

Would have been a good win for Dempsey compared to beating a dying man

 

Dempsey fought Johnson inJuly 1916 when he had just turned 19 years old and was a sparring partner for Carl Morris.Norfolk fought him in Jun1919.Johnson had had one fight in the previous three years since 1916.

 

Dempsey won the title in July 4th ,Johnson fought in Mexico city the same day, he had a further 2 fights there that year that accounted for him up to the end of September.

InJuly 1920 Johnson surrendered to the US authorities.

I've asked you to produce one newspaper heading calling for a Jack Johnson fight you havent done so and you won't, because they do not exist!
In July 1920 Johnson was 42 years old.
Q. Where would they have fought ?
Q. Who would have promoted the fight?
Q. Who would have paid to see it?