A good video on Sonny Liston vs modern day super heavyweights

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What are your thoughts on this?

 

I was too distracted with the fact that he used my entire video without a mention or a link to the original work, that I didn’t hear a word he said.


Lazy work. I don’t think he’ll make it.

 

FFS, your trademark was even there in the corner through most of the vid; he made no acknowledgment whatsoever. That takes either a certain kind of nerve or a certain kind of ignorance ... a simple attribution isn't asking too much. Have you contacted him about it?

 

Liston weighed the same as Wilder weighed vs Ortiz who weighed around 240lbs proving Liston could knock out Ortiz if he had caught him, two other factors not mentioned were that Liston was much more bulky than Wilder because his stocky build was crammed into a shorter height of 6ft his biceps were as big as most heavies today and another thing he had over smaller greats was his reach was one of the longest in history, the main thing Wlad, AJ and Wilder have over the smaller legends is reach if you take that away the size thing becomes unimportant, Liston could jab with AJ because of this reach and his jab was as powerful as AJ`s, Liston would have destroyed Haye the way cruiserweight Carl Thompson did because he punched harder than Thomson and had a longer reach than Haye.

 

Haha yeah I know. This kind of thing happens all the time with my videos. It’s much worse when it’s like an Instagram account with a million followers. I’ll let this guy slide since he’s a new creator trying to get a start. But if he wants to make good content, I hope he puts a little more effort in.

 

I go back and forth on Liston. Was he that good, or was it his competition that made it look easy for him?

I think the answer was a bit of both.

Pro: Great skills inside and outside skills. Top power. He's got Mr. Fantastic type of arms. That reach is never ending on film. Top stamina for the later rounds. I'll settle on a solid chin, nothing beyond that.

Con: Cut and swelling prone. Questionable intangibles if one could test them. Didn't face anyone close to the great outside of Ali. So-So speed.

Today he could be #1, or no worse than #2-#3

 

Liston couldn`t cut the ring off against Ali that could hurt him against a runner with long arms like Fury.

 

I think Liston would be the best heavyweight today or top 5. I only could see guys like Wilder, Joshua, Fury, Ortiz and Povetkin having a chance to beat him and I'd favor him against all of them.

 

He`d have less trouble with Povetkin and Ortiz because their reaches aren`t that great compared to Liston`s and Ortiz was knocked out by Wilder while he was only 214lbs, which was near Liston`s weight, the other three would be a problem because Liston relied on heavily out reaching his opponents with his powerful jab but these three have good reaches and AJ and Wilder`s cases power to go along with their reach, Fury would bother Liston because he exploited his reach to the fullest v Wlad by running and only engaging rarely, Liston couldn`t cut the ring off against Ali and it would be the same vs Fury except with less punches thrown by Fury.

 

I would love to someone as good as Liston come along today. It would be great. His boxing was very good. He hit hard. What’s not to like?

Of course a talent like that would become champion today. Absolutely.

 

Interesting article from 1964. According to this, Liston didn't like big, strong fighters that he couldn't push around. The writer talks to Machen, Whitehurst, Marshall, and McCarter, a sparring partner who had beaten Liston as an amateur and wasn't impressed with him later either.

https://www.si.com/vault/1964/02/10/608210/the-four-who-baffled-liston
"What one sometimes forgets is that a large part of the Liston legend is built upon his last three fights, fights that were spread out over a three-year period and lasted exactly six minutes and four seconds. In less than a round Liston twice knocked out Patterson, the weak-chinned former champion, and humiliated an inept German, Albert (Quick-fall) Westphal. But before that Sonny Liston sometimes had more than a little trouble defeating fighters whose names were hardly household words. Even in their own households..."

"One day after we had worked out. Sonny woke me up by cocking a gun at my head and firing a blank. I guess I annoyed him. He was murdering all the sparring partners in camp except me. This he didn't like. I wasn't about to be raw meat for his bloody appetite. I protected myself. I fought like I did in the amateurs, only I was better. Willie Reddish [Sonny's trainer] had been working with me, and Liston resented this. Willie was forced to stop, but by then I had learned more than I had in my entire career."

"...McCarter did more than annoy Liston—he infuriated him. Fighting on top of Liston, McCarter was too big for Sonny to move, to set up. When he tried to push McCarter off, the burly college boy pulled back and often gave better than he got. In close, McCarter kept hammering at Liston's body. "Sonny likes to talk about training," he says, "but he's lazy. He doesn't like to do roadwork. And he does not like to be hit in the gut." When Liston managed to get clear, McCarter says, he timed the jab and beat Sonny to the punch. Every punch McCarter threw was a counter to Sonny's lead..."

 

Y I K E S

 

I see Liston being able to come forward with his jab and eventually floor the much bigger Fury. Wilder I could see catching Liston with some of his wild bombs which I believe are dangerous for anyone and possibly putting his lights out. Joshua I still don't know he might be powerful enough to overwhelm Liston. Ortiz I think would be able to go the distance with Liston and give him a good fight. Parker I think Liston overwhelms and may stop late. Povetkin is really hard for me to say I still want to see how he does with Joshua.

Liston though small compared to modern heavyweight I still think would be strong enough and had great technique and a very powerful jab which is the key for a smaller man to do well against bigger fighters. Not to long ago we saw James Toney a blown up Super middleweight do very well with top heavyweights this leads me to believe that if you brought back heavyweight greats to this time frame even the small they'd still do well. In boxing skill goes a long way and Liston didn't just destroy his opponents with power he was very techinical he threw a great jab one of the best in the heavyweight divisions history and also was very tight with all his punches and his defense. I think no matter what era he brought that too it would put him in contention. I truly believe if Liston had come up in the 70s or 90s he'd likely have had great fights and possibly have beat some greats in his prime.

I think saying he'd be top 20 really underestimates Liston who many consider a great. He had it all and though he fought mostly just contenders when I watch him hes always impressed me with his skills. I think he'd have the power still and the strength to take out the bigger men of today and if you put modern big men from today in his era they may have slightly more success because of there size but would still run into better boxers who we're smaller but could still get them out of there because of their skills. Size does matter in boxing especially in todays heavyweight division but its still the skill and god given ability which sets people apart and I think Liston had this its a shame that he didn't come up in a different era where he could've show cased his skills against better fighters I feel Liston was good enough to be one of the greats of 70's dominate the 80's with only Larry Holmes and Mike Tyson being threats to him and be one of the top fighters in the 90's. I think he would've destroyed mostly all the bigger fighters of this era and if he was around modern day he'd be a little bit bigger a little bit stronger and still have that great jab and thunderous punches behind it which would make him one of the top heavyweights. At the very least I believe he'd be a contender if not the champion.

I think the heavyweights today are actually very good Joshua and Wilder may prove to be great. Povetkin and Fury have already put together good careers and I think both would be good challengers and possible champions in almost any era. Ortiz is very good really I think in any other era with his skills and size would be a contender and could possibly capture a title I wouldn't expect him to come out on top vs great fighters but I would favor him against some of the champs in the past. Parker, Whyte, Pulev and some of the other contenders are solid and big guys. Still I think Liston was a force to be reckoned with when he was on his game and no matter what time he came about he'd still be able to use his jab, would be strong enough and have the skills to still beat bigger men.

 

He'd beat those guys you mentioned simply because Wilder, Joshua, etc really can't fight. At least not on the level of a Liston, Foreman, or Ali. It's a different game today. A safer game. But that's the difference. Did this speaker actually say Tyson Fury has great foot work? That tells me (at least) his real knowledge of the fight game. The guy is big, and very awkward , but that's has nothing to do with great footwork. He gets absolutely no leverage on his punches. And he does more leaning in and tieing up than almost anyone I've seen in all my yrs of watching boxing. He is great at frustrating other fighters. But theirs absolutely nothing great about him.

 

I agree about Fury I feel his size with his style makes him very effective but a fighter like Liston with his reach would be able to come forward with his jab and get to Fury. I think the jab would eventually take over the fight, bust Fury up and eventually Liston would be able to get home with a right hand a floor him. Steve Cunningham not a big heavyweight floored Fury and he isn't bigger or better then Liston and I think Cunningham is comparable to many of the guys Liston beat on his way to the title.