Cotto vs Pacquiao in a P4P sense + other matchups

This is undoubtedly because you're of the more modern state of mind. What flaws does Robinson posess to you aside from a lower guard? Aside from his jab(due to his low setting), he threw every punch perfectly and with excellent power and speed. He was probably the best combination puncher I've ever seen on film, especially in close. He had very good footwork, and a fantastic chin, so I doubt Jones would find him particularly easy to pot-shot. And Jones was never a big time jabber, he often threw a short one, so I don't think his jab would be put to much use against Robinson, considering in a P4P sense Robinson would be a bit taller. Complicated, and I'm about to go looking for some green right now, but I'll be back on later.

But as far as chances, I think Robinson would also have a very high chance of catching Jones with something big, as all of his punches outside of the jab were pitch perfect by any standard. And Jones ain't surviving if caught.

 

Very good point:good

 

I wouldn't say Pea dominated that fight. He still lost rounds, and there were a few close ones. He definitely got caught more then a few times cleanly. I can't believe you don't give Jones any credit for his brutal 1st round KO victory over Griffin. You can't really think that his new trainer is solely to blame??? That is pretty silly. Griffin regardless is under rated IMO, and in his prime was quite a cagey fighter. Jones though learnt in the first fight, that when he stepped it up offensively, he could catch Griffin, which was the best possible way to handle him.

 

Yeah I get what your saying. I just feel Cotto's more consistent attack and body punching would allow him to take advantage of Guzman's low output and suspect stamina. Guzman doesn't have great power so Cotto would not have to be tentative when on the attack. Also his tendancy to stand and trade could could get him in a bit of trouble in this fight if he decides to do so.

On the other hand I could see Guzman just countering the **** outa him, it's a real tough one . The only other fights i disagree with you on are Pac-Hopkins and Guzman-Mijares, which are both hard to predict.

 

You can't seriously tell me that watching their footage side by side you can't see that Jones is superior? SRR had incredible natural talent, but the difference is still visibly noticable. Jones as a combination puncher, not only used every angle in the book, but threw his shots at full power. SRR tended to flurry or shoe shine at times much like SRL.

 

I didn't say that his new trainer was solely to blame, I was saying that the main reason for his success in the first fight was because of Eddie Futch, who's fighters thrived against the more unorthodox, athletic types, as shown with Griffin's success against Jones, and a Futch fighter like Norton and his success against Ali, though Ali was past his prime.

 

That last sentence is total bull****. The main reason I considered Robinson's combinations the best of all time was because he put full power behind every punch. That right there leads me to believe you're either thinking about Leonard(who was also underrated in this department, and put good power behind his best combos, which explains why he was such a good finisher) or haven't seen enough Robinson.

Not to mention, most of the Robinson anyone has seen is past his prime at MW, whereas his best weight was by far WW. Jones was more athletic, but he wasn't as technically skilled, as tough, as durable, as powerful in a P4P sense, or as tested and proven as Robinson. Not by a long shot. Jones was quicker and more athletic, those are his edges. He has these edges on a guy like Monzon as well, and you know my thoughts in those regards. Even in his fading days, he held those edges over Tarver.

 

It's amazing how you make it sound like Griffin was merely a puppet for Futch.....stop pretending....Griffin got lucky once only to hit the shithouse right after....I can't believe you all are having a serious discussion about Griffin....who gives a ****?

 

He doesnt need room, Pac can throw a burst of flurries from the inside to back cotto up. I doubt Cotto would be so confident at close quarters either once he tastes Pacs power, Mosley at 147lb is no powerpuncher but he was the one backing Cotto up. Dont forget Pacs explosive legs, hes very good at dartibg in and out fast to get his distance. Besides Cotto not really a phonebooth fighter, Pac has room for his str8 left. Cotto gets hit way too much too, if Judah can hurt him, Pac can finish him. Every fighter who ever stood toe-toe with Pac suffered, Morales is known for his wars and chin, he opted to box against Pac and when they traded, Pac knocked him out. MAB is a warrior who felt proud to simply run around and last the full 12 rounds with Pac. JMM gets excited and tastes the canvas.

Its Pac's speed, explosiveness & power vs Cotto's skills. The only skills that kept Pac at bay was JMM and thats completely different, Morales height, chin + skills beat Pac but in Cotto's case he lacks the height and iron chin advantage. Closest I can compare Cotto to is MAB, both great jabs, both great combination punchers, both great bodypunchers and both could be hurt, both IMO would face the same problem.

 

Griffin got lucky for 8 straight rounds? Jones was just missing that night out of sheer luck gone Griffin's way? Griffin was a crafty fighter who's best abilities were brought out by Futch, a trainer perfectly suited to dealing with fighters like this(and against opponents like Jones). Futch was one of the very best trainers and boxing minds of all time.

Stop being an idiot, your ignorance is in full force today.

 

and another thing i thought about was when kessler was hurt badly to the body from one of joe's right hands downstairs. cotto could hurt him too.

 

I have watched enough of SRR to see when he throws combinations, he odesn't do it with the same power that RJJ does. Although at times he would really sit down on his punches, maybe at the end of a combination, IMO when he really let his hands go in full combination punching, he flurries more so then throwing quick accuracte power punches. Not saying they had NO power, but not as much power as Roy could throw with in combination.

Roy had an abundance of technical skill, but it was made to suit his superior reflexes. You can't judge it by normal criteria. His defence was superb, his offense brilliant. I never saw anyone either defend or get to Roy effectively. Maybe rounds here or there like against Griffin or Harding, showing against counter punchers that he suffered when he wasn't offensive enough. That is about it. Robinson wasn't a pure counter puncher either in the mould of this guys, so the stylistic advantage isn't there. Jones is simply better in most areas than robinson was. More powerful, faster, more unorthadox. Not by large amounts, but enough to mean that SRR wouldn't have any way of adapting to beat Jones.

 

You are exaggerating here to try and make your points though. Jones wasn't getting "beaten for 8 rounds consecutively". He was having a rough time in a very close fight, but was starting to land more against Griffin as he figured him out. A lazy fight for Jones, which was often his problem against defensive counter punchers. He had the same issues vs harding also. When he came out focused and ready to let his hands go, the difference was massive.

 

And where did you pick up that quote?

But it's impossible to imagine the best one of all time(Whitaker) beating him in a P4P H2H matchup?

And you don't think having a problem with this level of fighter would lead to any level of concern with the elite of the elite in this category?

The difference with Griffin was quite apparent as well. Although ultimately, if being honest, I'd agree that Jones's style and attacker mode that night would've always taken Griffin out.

 

I disagree. In Jones's best performance against Toney, he often threw flurries, much more often than SRR would, who very rarely if ever did to my recollection. You'd have to show me certain footage.

I completely disagree, as described above.

I disagree, Robinson was a bigger puncher for his size, and known as so. Jones never accomplished something like taking out a fighter known as having one of the best chins of all time(Zakman had him in his top 10 for Christ's sake) with one punch, when fighting above his best weight.

Who am I thinking here again?

But for this matchup, having an offensive machine like Robinson on him for once will lead to a lot of stylistic difficulties, as he won't be able to set and counter as much without the risk.

I just gave a different advantage.

He was not more powerful, I explained that, not than a WW Robinson. He was faster, but his combinations were not as effecient in my opinion, you disagree. More unorthodox does not always equal an advantage, though it usually does for Jones.

Another advantage, SRR was the master adapter, one of the best ever in rematches. So, it's more than likely he'd at least pick up a win in a series.