At their prime who would win in a fight between Mike Tyson and Rocky Marciano?

You nailed it, great post. The "intangibles..." is what the "historians" turn to when the old fighter looks terrible on film. Willard looks terrible, but the "historians" claim he had more stamina, strength, and durability than modern fighters, Greb looks terrible in the only video available, but the "historians" claim he was stronger, braver, had more stamina and durability than modern fighters, Corbett looks terrible, but the "historians" claim he was faster (the old cameras and film just can't catch it), than anyone since...The "intangibles" are what the "historians" always fall back on when the old time, legendary fighter is finally seen on video and he looks like a kid slap boxing or some drunk fighting in a bar.

Most of the old time boxers would get a lot more respect if there was no video available.

 

A brilliant post ,laid out without rancour or agenda.Kudos to you!

 

Extremely well played. You have eloquently expressed thoughts that have been jingling around my head and which I have wanted to put into a topic. Now I don't have to! Thanks.

 

Besides the weight advantage this is another reason why why you can't compare the fighters from those eras to modern fighters. The skill level was so bad back then that these guys wouldn't even be considered amateur fighters by today's standards.

 

....now people are comparing Willard to Marciano...jeez I really thought the boxing IQ was higher on this site. Just more people who think more about skin color and nationality then anything. Truth of it is if Marciano weren’t white he’d be in everyone’s top ten HWs easy.

 

So I am being manipulated into thinking Rocky was great because of some wistful white pride boxing fans from the 60's? You know how ludicrous that sounds?

There are so many red flags in your theory, I'm surprised you haven't discarded it.

What about all the testimonials from boxers?
And from trainers?
What about the fact that he became the champion?
And defended the belt a handful of times?
And scored some of the most iconic knockouts in history against world class opponents?
What about the fact that Muhammad freakin' Ali rated him so highly?

Every single one of those things gets washed away in your mind because of this feeling you have that his legacy supporters were pushing their own race? That doesn't even make sense considering some his best testimonials come from black fighters.

Watch my video on Marciano. You don't have to squint to see how talented he was.
If you did, people wouldn't bother to watch it 2 million times.

You have some very shallow interpretations sometimes, such that any well produced video will make a crap fighter look good. Nope. I've been in the space for a very long time, and I know. I've seen countless clear "fan videos" of boxers where the production tries to make the subject matter something it's not. And people in general see through it right away.

I have no axe to grind.
I don't come from a boxing family.
My pops was close friends with Ali, but he never had more than at best a mainstream interest in the actual sport.
My race has nothing to do with the 20th century race dynamics in boxing.

Only God can say which one of us has the best interpretation of the sport.
The next best thing is producing your views into tangible goods and testing them out on the market.
Something I've managed to do successfully, not just for mainstream boxing fans, but for striving amateur fighters, trainers, pro boxers, and the boxing world in general. It's no easy task.

You constantly try to marginalize my work by pigeon holing it to classic fighters, or heavyweights.
My Lomachenko video has 1 Million views.
I have the most popular AJ vs. Wilder hype video.
Videos on Mikey Garcia, Josh Kelly, Bernard Hopkins, etc.
You are factually completely off base.
It's like you're not even giving an honest attempt.

My agenda as it relates to Marciano is simple.
He looks way better than his vehement critics claim.
And I want the truth to be known. Simple.
It's not about white/black, old/new.
It's about a guy whose life works get wrongly belittled by people to extreme lengths.
If you love boxing, you'll feel that someone like him deserves better.

 

Yep, intangibles is why people call Willard durable and full of stamina.
Can't possible be from the Dempsey and Johnson fights.

 

"What about all the testimonials from boxers?
And from trainers?"

What about the testimonials of boxers and trainers who don't think he could hold their collective jocks?

"What about the fact that he became the champion?"

No one is denying he was a champion. As were Marvin Hart and Tommy Burns and Jimmy Braddock.

"And defended the belt a handful of times?"

Yes, he did. Against a who's who of the Pugilistic Nursing Home.

"And scored some of the most iconic knockouts in history against world class opponents?"

Icon making is an invention of society not a something made in the ring.

"What about the fact that Muhammad freakin' Ali rated him so highly?"

That was mighty polite of him.

 

I really don't see other elite HWs get dragged through the mud nearly as much.
If someone bashes Lennox Lewis or Muhammad Ali, the whole forum sort of bands together in ignoring them completely.

He does do well in the polls and the ratings on the forum. That's a fair point.
But you're still not invited to my birthday party.

 

Realistically ,how many men under 190lbs can you pick against Rocky or give a decent chance with him?
Langford and Dempsey? Who else?
It seems Rocky is a sacred cow beyond any kind of objective criticism, when I read some of the posts lauding him I have to pause and ask myself, are these people watching the same footage I am? This clever defensive work, cute evasiveness ad nauseum, it's beyond ridiculous.
Peter Wilson interviewed Rocky several times,visited him at camps and saw all his major fights ,he once asked him how he would deal with a particular challenger should he box on the retreat? Marciano replied," you know what I look like in there,I'm no fancy dan, I'll just hope to catch him at some point."
I think Rocky would be embarrassed by some of the exaggerated claims made on his behalf .

 

If 5 elites say boxer A is great.
And one or two say that he is garbage.
Then he is almost certainly great.

By the way, Holmes also gave praise to Marciano, saying he took the stance that he did because he felt obligated to stand up for himself and for his supporters.
It might be in the same exact press conference.

He was a greater champion and far more accomplished.

Rankings don't take age into consideration.
It goes off who beats who.
Sort of like when Foreman and Wlad were fighting into their 40's, if that rings a bell?

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Yes and no. The English language is also a sociological construct. Shall we mince that too? Where does the line get drawn where being difficult for the sake of it becomes too ridiculous?
Iconic moments are derived from shared perception of events that occurred in the ring.

And honest.

 

Wrong Marciano is worse than his critics say and worse than his fanboys say. Marciano was just a flat out bum and if the mob didn't control boxing and Marciano wasn't Italian he would of never been champion.

Historically he is ranked 3 in a poll? Wow and who do you think made that poll? What kind of people do you think made that pool?

He is ranked one of the best pound for pound fighters ever? Again who do you think made these pools?

What is a fact is the best wins Marciano had in his career were against washed up fighters. Even if you grasp that Marciano isn't a modern sized heavyweight so stop comparing him to one. You will still see even for 185 pound standards Marciano is a bum. If your best wins in your career are against old men then you aren't good. Good or great fighters don't get destroyed by fighter with 70-68 records like Ted Lowry.

The only people who still ride that Marciano coat tail are people who look like him and still want to believe some 185 club fighter could beat modern sized heavyweights.

Joe Louis spent his career fighting tomato cans. Fighting bums does not make you great.

Ali lost all 3 fights to Norton. Great fighters learn to adapt. Ali could not. Ali best wins in his career was a lucky win against Foreman which I explained already. A win against a old overrated Sonny Liston, and against Joe Frazier who was never the same fighter after Foreman destroyed him. So both Ali and Louis are extremly overrated by casual fans but no figther is more hyped up by old time casual fans than Marciano.