How would Frazier fare against the following ATGs prime for prime?

Dempsey wins early by stoppage...

Frazier runs Tunney down late on gets a late stoppage despite being behind on points.

Louis does his damage early on and wins in the mid rounds as Frazier is taking too much punishment

Frazier takes Marciano on a close but clear decision.

Liston KO's Joe early

Frazier-Holmes is even better than Holmes-Norton but Joe wins this one on a split decision.

Tyson early or Frazier late... I lean to Frazier...

Holyfield wins a split decision

Frazier is hurt but rallies to outwork Lewis and win on points

 

Thanks buddy. I'm pretty comfortable with all those choices except Frazier vs Marciano. That one is a toss-up. They could win 5 each if they fought ten times.

 

Frazier TKO Dempsey

Frazier TKO Tunney

Louis late TKO Frazier

Frazier UD Marciano

Liston mid TKO Frazier

Frazier UD Holmes

Tyson early TKO Frazier

Frazier SD Holyfield

Frazier late KO Lewis

 

Lewis is a horrible matchup for Frazier. The one to avoid if anything IMO.

 

How about the fact that he actually WON those fights, whereas Liston LOST to Marshall, and possibly recieved a gift decision against Summerlin?

How is meeting the best fighters of your era avoiding people? He fought Ali, Foreman, Ellis, Quarry, Bonavena, Mathis and Foster. Those were basically the best fighters around between 1968-1973. Shavers didn't come into the picture until 1973, and lost in one to Quarry who Frazier beat the **** out of twice. Early in his career, Shavers lost to Ron Stander who Frazier devoured. Mac Foster, may have been ranked, but his record against world beaters was limited, and I don' think he was a #1 contender at any point.

I'm really begining to wonder which fights of Holyfield you've seen, and at what point in his career you're referring to. If you're claiming that his stamina was poor due to his performance in the third Riddick Bowe meeting, then I'd say your depth of knowledge on this subject shows through quite transparently. Holyfield went 12 rounds on many occasions with fighters who were bigger, stronger, and younger than he was, and the result was either holyfield taking the win, or giving them all they can handle in defeat. Frazier struggled over 15 rounds to beat a man who had only fought twice in 4 years. Never happened again...

Frazier's work rate was spectacular, but so was Holyfield's relentless heart and will power. If you watch all three Bowe fights, plus his fights with Dokes, Moorer II, Tyson I, etc, you'll see what I'm talking about. Evander did not gas as easily as you're trying to make it sound, and frankly I'm not sure where this nonsense is coming from.

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NewsFlash: Frazier would be 0-4 against both those guys, and probably would not survive a fraction of the rounds that Holyfield did, despite being in his prime, something that Evander wasn't for most of those fights.

You've just basically summed up the extent of your knowledge with that statement. You obviously know nothing of Dokes' career, nor have seen his fight with Holyfield to understand why this was a cornerstone in both Evander's career as well as heavyweight boxing of the 80's. You claim he was 10 years past his prime and coked up? He was 30 years old, drug free for the first time in years, keeping busy, and training under better managment. He was in the best physical and mental shape of his career, and a drastic improvement over the Dokes who fought in 1983.

And Holyfield at age 34, and after a brief abscence from the sport, along with a bad pounding from Bowe, and recurring health problems was Prime??? You never cease to show your inability to look at both sides of the equation.

To someone who has never seen any of his fights in their entirety, perhaps.

 

You're the one who commented on Evander's performance against Qawi, and now you're making up excuses about short amateur careers. If this is a huge problem then why don't you tell me about the extensive amatuer careers of Liston's early opponents, and how it put him at a disadvantage. Also tell me how going 15 rounds and winning a world title, against a future hall of fame champion in only your 11th pro fight, is worse than getting your ass handed to you by an 18-5-1 fighter who never went anywhere?

 

With which weopon? The left hook? A tool that was not particularly useful against Lennox Lewis, who was mainly only troubled by rights, and ones that came from men who stood over 6 feet tall and weighed anywhere from 235 - 240. What similarities do you see with these men and Joe Frazier? I for one can talk to you about some congruencies between Frazier and some of the men that Lewis fought. Razor Ruddock, Tommy Morrison, and a number of other men who were strong left hookers, all got smoked by Lewis.

 

I disagree about Frazier being a one dimensional fighter. In his early career before Eddie Futch started working with him, Frazier was more of a stand-up boxer that used a jab and a solid straight right hand. It was after the Bonavena fight where some say he got a gift from the judges, that Eddie started making him bob, weave and punch off the angles.

He was practically shot, wearing contact lenses against Foreman in Uniondale 76 and showed better boxing skills than most give him credit for.

The only advantages Mike Tyson has over Frazier IMO is right hand power and hand speed, but not by a wide margin. Dr. Ferdie Pacheco once quoted Frazier as having the greatest stamina ever for a heavyweight that he's seen, on the "Greatest Fights Ever" broadcast. Pretty significant statement coming from the personal physician of the universally heralded greatest heavyweight of all time, Ali.

If Tyson doesn't get Frazier out early, like Foreman did in 73, Mike gets his butt whupped inside 10 rounds. That goes for all the other fighters mentioned in this thread. Tyson, Liston and Lennox are more vulnerable against Frazier after the early rounds because they've had conditioning issues in their fights. None of them are winning a match with Frazier based on conditioning.

Holyfield, Louis, Marciano and Holmes couldn't knock out Frazier early but I'd bet on them to make the fight more competive in the middle to late rounds as opposed to Tyson, Liston and Lennox Lewis.

Frazier did have a plan B and he could move and box. He never really needed to until he met Foreman the first time and that Frazier was the furthest from the FOTC.

 

Liston had less than 10 amatuer fights, he was a raw novice entering the pros. Evander had an illustrious long time amatuer career capped with a bronze medal at the olympics. far more experience entering the pros. O, and can you imagine evander in his 7th amatuer fight beating the snot out of olympic gold medalist the way liston did to 6'4 225lb ed sanders?

ps Liston went combined 4-1 against marshall/summerlin, dont think liston was not winning either.

Don't speak of which you do not know

Sure holyfield was past it, but dont make it out to be like he beat some ATG wrecking machine in tyson. tyson was way gone, the fight is vastly overated. tyson would have lost to most greats on that night.

Yada Yada Yada. Ive seen it all, I know all about dokes career, i own 7 of his fights, ive watched the easily accesible holyfield-dokes fight on youtube many times.

lol dont be so dramatic, this was not the cornerstone of heavyweight boxing in the 1980s, mike tysons arrival was.


It was a turning point in evanders career, sure. he fought a guy who had not beat a single ranked contender in nearly a decade, and ended up having a toe to toe war with him in which evander outlasted dokes. great job. ive seen the fight.

I didnt say he was coked up for the fight, I did call him "coke dokes" because he earned that nickname.

Yes dokes was 10 years past his physical prime. If you watch, dokes though drug free and in shape does not pocess the blazing speed and reflexes he did nearly a decade earlier. physically, he is past it. mentally? no. I might add my buddy riddick bowe just a couple years later destroyed dokes easily in what 2 rounds?

Dokes in the early 1980s was at his peak, this is undeniable. This was his physical peak, when he threw combinations in bunches with lightning like speed.

against bowe? sure. bowe is a beast. but you never know with lennox with that chin of his, i suspect if lennox fights the way he did vs tua he will outpoint frazier.

O thats right a prime evander was so special, losing to michael moorer, nearly getting stopped by journeyman cooper, struggling with 40 year olds. that holyfield sure dominated in his prime, he was the quintisential consistent fighter....LOL

Too Too many.

yada yada yada, here come the excuses. Don't worry I read Holyfields wonderful long biography The Real Deal, I already know read and memorized all of evanders exuses from his book, there were alot for each loss or bad performance. His heart attack in the moorer fight, his hepatitis in the bowe fight, his what was it some kind of weight training exuse caused him to be sluggish Cyz fight? i forget the bean, lewis, ruiz exuses. I think he had one for the Bowe I fight too. I think i am going to check the book again. Very funny.


Evander gassed against Bowe I, he gassed against moorer, he gassed in bowe III, he had to be hospitalized due to exhaustion and dehydration after Qawi I, he gassed in others too. I think the best display of stamina he he showed was in tyson I, he showed good stamina vs foreman and mercer too. but too many exuses for evander.

holyfield had the heart of a warrior, thats why not taking that away from him. Evander fought 12 rounds vs chris bryd with a torn rotator cuff, the same injury vital klitschko quit way ahead on points with 2 rounds to go.

 

I think with his pressure style. Frazier would overwhelm Tunney. Holyfield & Lewis like to exchange too much and are there to be hit. Frazier's bobbing and weaving style would be very effective against these two foe's While Frazier deliver's hard left hooks to the body & head. Although it would take longer with Lewis, he would eventually catch Lewis and swarm in to finish him off. If Holyfield trades with Frazier like he did against Quawi. Frazier would get a TKO about the seventh round.
Louis was a good enough boxer to not get into a wild exchange with Frazier. And Louis' left hook will eventually find it's mark in about the fifth or sixth.
Dempsey will be toe to toe with Frazier and they would trade murderous shots. IMO Dempsey will absorb the punches better and Frazier will eventually get hurt, where he can't recover.
A careful Frazier should be able to move & score enough points to outhustle Liston in a close one.
Against a Cus managed Tyson, Tyson will be busy enough to get the victory either by Decision or stoppage. A post Cus Tyson, who throws one punch at a time, Frazier will hit Tyson too many times for him to effectivly respond, Frazier UD.
Marciano could take whatever Frazier could dish out and deliver his own arsenal. Marciano by mid rounds stoppage.
Holmes would be a classic, although Holmes has a simular style to Ali, Frazier wouldn't be that effective against Holmes. The main difference would be Holmes' power, it would stun an aggressive Frazier & allow Holmes to build up a big points advantage, also behind a spectacular Jab.

 

Sure Holyfield had an extensive amateur career, but he also wasn't losing to a mediocre fighter. He was in a 15 round fight against a world champion and future hall of famer. As for him gassing and going to the hospital, is this really unreasonable given the circumstances, and is it worse than having your ****ing jaw broken? You have to put these things into perspective.

Funny how some have called one of the summerlin fights a robbery, but you of all people who call every single split decision or draw a robbery when it doesn't go your way, seem to think it was on the level.

Then give me reason to think otherwise.

The man had lost only once in 45 fights, looked rather menacing in his 4 comeback matches, and was picked to mutilate Holyfield. While I agree that some all time greats may have beaten Tyson that night, its not something they would likely do if they were fighting under the circumstances that Holyfield was under. Could Liston or Frazier have beaten a 1996 Tyson when they were 34 years of age, and in Holyfield's situation?

If any of those fights you own are his earlier performances, then you should know what I'm talking about.

That fight was rated as one of the best fights of the decade, even on a pound for pound basis. Name at least 3 heavyweight fights that you can think of that were more exciting than that match, and please list fights you've seen.

You applied the name as though, he had been snorting blow in the locker room right before the fight. Why would you call him " coke dokes ", when discussing the Holyfield fight?

So I guess his prime came in 1979 when he 20 years of age, and barely had 15 fights? Uh no.

Yes, watch his blazing speed as a he drew with Ozzie Ocasio, took a split decision over Tex Cobb, was gifted a draw against Mike Weaver, and knocked out by Gerrie Coetzee who most of Dokes' peers had schooled. Sorry, but this version of Dokes does not beat Holyfield nor give him the kind of war that he did in 1989.

You might add that this fight took place a full 4 years after the Holyfield fight, and following two devastating beatings from Evander and Razor, along with significant weight gain, mediocre performances against journeyman, and resumed use of drugs. Not to mention, facing the ultimate peak version of Bowe that was better than any other rendition.

It was extremely deniable. John Thomas and Labotomy both know more about fighters of the early 80's than you or I combined, Partially because they were there ( something you don't often give merit to ). John and I, have had many conversations concerning Doke's prime. We both have concurred on more than one occasion that his 1989 performance against Holyfield was the best of his career. You're making the assumption that because he was younger, that he simply had to have been better, leaving out a myriad of factors that prove the contrary. Labotomy has also claimed that he felt the Ocasio draw should have gone in favor of Ossie.

And was lacking in power, stamina, discipline and long term focus.

Lennox Lewis was not particularly prone to left hookers. He utterly destroyed everyone he ever met.

Not a prime Holyfield, nor a very healthy one, yet he still managed to floor Moorer and fought well enough to a verdict that probably should have been ruled a draw.

Laugh all you want. He never struggled with 40 year olds. I'd say he won those fights handedly, despite not going for any real KO attempts, but rather fighting those matches on cruise control. Cooper was a dangerous fighter who gave lots of fighters trouble, and was a last minute replacment for Francesco Damiani, who in turn was filling in for Tyson. Holyfield's proclaimed opponent changed names about 3 times in a 4 week period. A factor that should be considered.

NOTE:
Regardless, of Foreman being 42 years of age, I'd still pick him to beat a prime Frazier, considering his added size and improved defensive abilities, not to mention the easy fashion in which he beat Joe the first two times.

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Or too few. Catching clips on youtube doesn't always tell the whole story. It often shows only the clips that one chooses to display

What evidence do you have to say he was lying? Or does his disabilities at times prove to be an inconvience in your argument. You claim to be an athlete yourself. Is the concept of performance effecting injuries or illnesses something that your oblivious to?

In the 10th round, Holyfield went toe to toe with Bowe, in what was deemed as the most exciting round of the match. In the 11th round, Evander rose after a knockdown, to go on and take the 12th on most of the judges scorecards, as well as my own. Also keep in mind, this was at the end of grueling contest against a world class contender who was bigger, stronger, and younger. How by your definition is this gassing? To me, gassing would have been if the guy was holding on for dear life, just trying to survive with nothing left in the tank. In the 12th and final round, he was still trying to win that fight and doing better than Bowe at that point.

Most of this has already been covered.

We can at least agree on this, but let's not get carried away with Vitali's quit job against Chris Byrd. Vitali had a legitimate injury and was beating Byrd convincingly.

 

What was said was that Holyfield didn't have the punch "to match Frazier in a brawl," not that he didn't have the punch to "stop Frazier if he landed enough."

The Qawi fight was at cruiserweight; I assume we're discussing a heavyweight Holyfield, here- you can't just mix-and-match and create a Holyfield who has the strength power of his built-up, roided-up, 215-pound exploits AND the stamina of his pre-body-building, 190-pound days.

The Dokes fight only went into the 10th round, and Holyfield looked pretty badly tired at times during the first 9. Watch the film; his mouthpiece is hanging out and he barely throws a punch for about the first two minutes of the eighth, and he spends extended stretches in the ninth sagging into Dokes and looking to rest in clinches. If you think Holyfield displays Frazier-level stamina here, I'd say you're sorely mistaken.

No, looking through Holyfield's heavyweight career, we can see numerous instances of him visibly sagging, running out of wind, and all-around running out of gas in the mid-to-later later rounds of 12-round bouts. Watch the 12th round against Foreman- Holyfield is dead tired, and at one point in the last minute grabs hold of Foreman's waist and refuses to let go for several seconds in spite of the referee both telling him to break and actually physically trying to pull them apart.