How would Frazier fare against the following ATGs prime for prime?

Frazier fare against the following ATGs prime for prime?
Dempsey destroys frazier in 2 or 3

Tunney picks frazier apart for a tko but joe could get lucky and catch tunney for a ko maybe 1 out of 3 matches

Louis ko,s frazier by 6 at the latest

Marciano ko,s frazier late or the rock could always loose by tko because of his tender face

Liston ko,s frazier late

Holmes -undecided

Tyson -this could go to frazier if he makes it out of the first 6 or 7
but most likely tyson by ko in 3,4,or,5
Holyfield ko,s fraizer very late,but could also go either way

Lewis-undecided rocky ko,s frazier in a war and dempsey slaughters fraizer in 2 rounds

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Joe Frazier, the Truth Machine, has inspired quite a bit of key pounding today!

I think he beats boxers Tunney and Holmes, edges brawlers Holy (stamina) and Marciano (a bit too small, slow and predictable), loses quite badly to elite punchers Tyson, Dempsey and Louis.

I would make Lewis and Liston favorites over Frazier, but if they don't blast him out early, the tide could turn literally sooner or later in the form of a bad cut deflating Liston or a picture-perfect left hook smash to the Lewis head.

This thread features the best heavyweight champions of all time against this small man Frazier, and it is a tribute to him that he matches up favorably.

 

Marciano would not have been a sparring partner in 70's, he was that crap. He was gettign scholled by a slow old man before cheating and hitting a man while he is down. It was OK because he was white, in a time when the laws said they were superior. I think he was grossly overrated for that reason and anyone who watched too many tapes will see he is out of place on that list. Frazier would eat him alive, never mind the rest! He knew it himself and stayed retired, which he did prematurely. Arnold Cream* was slower than The Mummy, and Charles and Louis were well washed up. So who did he beat to be considered great?


*If you don't know who Cream is don't talk to me! You ain't in my league!

 

Are you Russ Anber?

 

So you're saying that Quarry would never compare to any of the challengers in the Tyson/Lewis/Bowe/Holyfield years? There were a number of heavies in the 70's who chose not to get in the ring with Quarry. The man was a good boxer with with a short, compact, solid left hook. Jerry Quarry is universally recognized by many of the all time great heavyweights as an uncrowned champion. Quarry would give Tyson, Lewis, Bowe, Holyfield very tough fights that could possibly go the distance. You're disrespecting Quarry by undermining his fight with Frazier, which I believe was fight of the year.

 

Arnold Cream, though 37 years of age was still fairly competitive and probably the best he had ever been. He was an experienced heavyweight champion who had cleaned the division of its finest talent and was a very skilled boxer. I agree that at times, Marciano gets overrated on a head to head basis, by those who for whatever reason think that he'd just walk all over any future champion, but as legacies go, he belongs right up there with the rest of them...

 

Where to start...

I assume you're referring to the first Walcott fight-
1. Marciano was behind, but he was not being "schooled." He had won four to five of the 12 previous rounds, and certainly already had Walcott looking like he'd been in a fight. Had the knockout not happened and the fight had progressed to a 15-round decision, it would not have been seen as anything approaching a blow-out.
2. Walcott was most assuredly not slow, as a cursory examination of the film would show you.
3. As the film will also show, Walcott was knocked out with a very legal punch. Marciano does kind of tap Walcott with his left after the knockout punch, but Walcott is still technically not down, as the ropes are holding him up and all his knees and gloves are off the floor. Not only was it not a violation of the rules, even if it HAD been, do you think Walcott was just chipper and would assuredly have gotten up and won if not for it?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7UYjF7ii94&feature=related
See for yourself.

Um, no, actually, Marciano was much less highly-regarded in his own time than he is now.

Tell that to Joe- Frazier himself ranks Marciano ahead of him (his list is as follows: 1. Joe Louis, 2. Rocky Marciano, 3. himself), and he listed Rocky as one of his idols, along with Louis and Henry Armstrong, when I met him.

Nonsense. Out of the fighters listed in this thread, Frazier and Lewis both had fewer professional fights than Marciano, and Tunney, Dempsey and Frazier (aside from one ill-advised comeback fight against a journeyman that ended in a draw) all retired the same age or younger than he did. When Marciano retired, he had compiled the most consecutive wins of any heavyweight champion, defeated the best opposition available in his era, given rematches when the first fight left doubt and beaten his opponents worse, won the championship and made six successful defenses, all against elite-ranking contenders.

Arnold Cream* was slower than The Mummy, and Charles and Louis were well washed up.[/quote]
Saying Walcott was "slower than The Mummy" is like saying Mike Tyson didn't hit as hard as Chris Byrd. Louis was well past his best days, but he was still better than 99% of all heavyweights. Note that he had won eight consecutive fights in the last 11 months. Charles was slightly past his heavyweight peak, but was only 33 years old, still the #1 contender for the championship and had won back-to-back knockouts over top 10 contenders in his last two fights. Louis and especially Charles were still among the absolute cream of the crop and far from "well washed up" when Marciano fought them.

Everyone he ever fought in a professional fight, including four Hall-of-Famers, better than a dozen fighters who were ranked in the top 10 during their careers, nine currently ranked in the top 10 when he beat them, and five number-one contenders. He faced the best of his time, won every single time, and gave them rematches and won more dominantly when the first fight was not decisive. This is all one can ask of a fighter, and Marciano fulfilled it as fully and thoroughly as any champion ever has.

I would bet there is almost no one on this site who doesn't know who Arnold Raymond Cream was. It's one of those bits of high-society boxing-history trivia that have been repeated so often that they've pretty well lost their value as the elitist measuring-sticks they were once perceived to be.

 

That was not how I interprted it. If a stand and trade match broke out between the two, I think Holyfield might have an edge because he takes a better punch.

Holyfield had a long career. Far longer than Frazier. There is not doubt that Holyfield fought fare more punchers than Frazier did. Bowe 3x, Tyson 2x, Lewis 2x, Mercer, Morrer, Cooper, Foreman, Douglas, etc....

He was only stopped once in his prime. It is unlikely that a prime Frazier could stop a prime Holyfield. The difference between how Holyfield and Frazier took Foreman's blows is HUGE, even if the younger Foreman hit a little harder.

Sure Holyfield was tired with Dokes. That tough fight featured both Dokes and Holyfield belting each other low un-purpose in the later rounds. The ref of the fight told the fighters they are now even on low blows, but the damage was done. When Holyfield needed extra gas in the Dokes fight, here he had it. The toughest fight Frazier had, his corner retired him in the 14th as he was busted up and also tired.

 

goes to war with dempsey for 15: winner= coin flip
kos tunney in 4
tko loss to louis in 10
stops marciano in 9
beats liston by UD
loses by UD to holmes
loses to tyson in the same way eitienne did
beats holyfield up badly in a very competitive UD win
beats lewis by UD in a boring one

 

I believe it's very likely that a prime Frazier 67 - FOTC, stops Evander in 10 rounds or less. I'm not talking about the Frazier that declined considerably after the FOTC, but the 203 - 207 lb prime late 60's version.

There's no way Evander would have been able to handle the pressure and pace of Joe Frazier had they fought prime for prime. In fact, Evander wouldn't have stood up to most of the men from the 1970's era. Don't compare Frazier's pace with the pace that Tyson put on Holyfield in the first three rounds of their first fight. Tyson's pace starts to decline after rounds 5 & 6, where Frazier picks up steam.

You're also forgetting that Evander was not a natural heavyweight but a comfortable cruiserweight. Joe Frazier, was a natural heavyweight with superior stamina and endurance. Evander's never been 15 rounds from what I remember. Evander does compare favourable to Frazier in terms of heart and courage, but nothing more. They were two different fighters.

 

Dempsey- Frazier UD

Tunney- Frazier KO 11

Louis- Louis TKO 6

Marciano- Marciano UD

Liston- Liston TKO 4

Holmes- Holmes SD

Tyson- Tyson TKO 4

Holyfield- Frazier SD

Lewis- Lewis UD

 

If they were to go at each other shot-for-shot for one round, I think it's fairly close, as I agree Holyfield had a stronger chin, but I would also say Frazier hit substantially harder. However, I don't think either of them would be liable to sweep over the other one early or coast past him; this would be a war. A battle of attrition.

If Buster Douglas and Michael Moorer are "punchers," then I'd say Frazier fought a fair few punchers. However, I digress; I think Bowe, Lewis, Tyson, Mercer and Cooper probably all hit harder than anyone Joe fought aside from Foreman, and so the theme of this paragraph stands.

However, Frazier was a whole different animal from the punchers you list. You seem to be looking at these guys as though they were stagnant in a fight. The idea isn't that Frazier would overwhelm Holyfield with his power early or score a one-punch knockout; it's that Holyfield would not be able to hang with Frazier or handle Frazier's pressure over a full 15-round distance. Frazier's pure pressure was a force to be reckoned with, and it came with crushing power that he carried for a full 15 rounds, a frightening workrate and a murderous body attack. Frazier was on your chest the entire fight, and he didn't take breaks. As a heavyweight, Holyfield routinely visibly tired in the later stages of 12-rounders against opponents far less wearying than Frazier.

I think the younger Foreman hit more than a "little" harder than the old Foreman, or was at least a vastly more effective offense fighter. The '90s Foreman had only one knockout (Moorer) in six or seven fights against ranking contenders. Do you honestly think that the plodding Buddha of a Foreman who fought Holyfield would have done anything like what the '70s Foreman did to Frazier?

Holyfield could get away with these kinds of things against a guy like Michael Dokes, who was a pudgy, drug-abusing, aging contender who tired with him, but again, Frazier is a whole nother proposition. Frazier wouldn't give Holyfield respite. The point isn't that his punches would necessarily come harder than those of Tyson or Cooper or the like, but that they would come more often and more consistently and would stay hard all night. Frazier would be on your chest the whole fight, would never take a round off, would mercilessly batter your body and arms 'till you were wheezing and helpless, and wouldn't let up until you were finished.

That was a past-prime Frazier who was 10 pounds over his peak weight fighting at a mercilessly back-breaking pace in 95-degree heat over 14 compubox-record-contending rounds; this fight and Holyfield vs. Michael Dokes are not even in the same league.
Watch Frazier-Ali I to see Frazier at his best. His stamina is tremendous, on a whole nother level from Holyfield's. What do you think Holyfield would be able to do that Ali couldn't that night? I certainly don't think Holyfield had as much speed, stamina or durability as Ali. He's not going to outbox Frazier. I would say his only noteworthy advantages when stacked up with Ali would be an edge in power and infighting skills, both of which would largely come into effect only if he fought a war of attrition with Joe, which I'm confident he'd lose.